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Need help with shooting my Glocks

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by kaptain, Apr 7, 2012.

  1. kaptain

    kaptain

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    I went out shooting today and was trying to shoot at 7 yards and I'm having trouble hitting where I'm aiming.

    I'm holding on the center of the bullseye and I'm shooting low and left.

    I am shooting Ameriglo Pro GL-147 night sights and I'm having some issues. I have dry fired a lot in my home but apparently it hasn't translated very well at the range.

    Here is a target I shot at today.

    [​IMG]

    I'm holding with my sights with the three dots level and placing the top of the blade on the bullseye cross.


    Here are the sights, with a close sight alignment of what I'm talking about

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  2. barth

    barth six barrels

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    Try dry fire practice squeezing the trigger while keeping the sights on target.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012

  3. kodiakpb

    kodiakpb

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    [​IMG]

    I'd post some vids on proper grip and trigger engagement. But I don't have them handy. Someone else will follow up.
     
  4. Rustin

    Rustin

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    I've never seen that target before. I think it can be beneficial to alot of shooters out there. Thanks for posting.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  5. robhic

    robhic I'm your huckleberry.... Platinum Member Silver Member

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  6. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    You want your targets to look more like this?

    [​IMG]

    I also do rapid fire at 7 yards, like as fast as you can pull the the trigger, and am happy as long as all land on an 8.5 x 11 paper. But the above 50 foot targets are from slowing the process down, not as slow as I do for 25 yard to get the same group size as above. But still relatively slow. Point being, going faster or slower gives different results, but always a more centered distibution of shots than what you are showing.

    If you were rapid firing, that's not bad shooting you are showing, but you are pushing left. You are right handed.

    Dryfire is over-rated on the internet. It needs to be coupled with a surprise break and a straight back trigger pull. Think about pulling the trigger straight back to the rear sights.

    And, for the most difficult thing of all, slow it down. Just for learning purposes, slow the trigger pull down to 30 seconds from once you start moving the trigger to when it actually goes BANG!

    And for the most important part of it all, it needs to be a surprise break. During a slow and steady trigger pull, while keeping the sights alignened and on target, do you know exactly when it will go bang? You don't want to know. You can't successfully suddenly get the trigger pulled while having a moment of sights on target. Instead, the trigger pull needs to be a slow applying of pressure while the sights are bouncing around. The moment of firing isn't one instant of perfect sight picture. Instead the moment of firing is part of a process of the steady increase in trigger pressure while you are minimizing, but not eliminating, the sight picture movement. You can't hold perfectly steady, so don't try to find such a moment. Instead work on a perfectly slow and steady trigger pull that goes toward your rear sights.

    Trust that once learned, this trigger process can be sped up. But it still remains a process over the entire length of the trigger pull, and includes a surprise break, even as you shoot more rapidly.

    The proof in the pudding is how randomly your shots are placed around the point of aim. That's why I posted my targets for you to see. They show me how I was shooting the 3 guns today. You will notice that my Glock 26 does indeed show a couple left shots getting away from me, just like yours. So I do have the same issue as you with the baby Glock, but just to a much less degree. Still, it is something I keep aware of. With the fullsize grip of the 17, I am less prone to it, but still not perfect :)

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  7. kaptain

    kaptain

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    I think I've got too little of my trigger finger pad on the trigger itself. I moved it a little in towards the first joint and I think that will help keep the sights a bit more 'calm'.

    I read about putting a coin on the top of the front sight and keeping it balanced when dry firing, so I've done that some.

    I was doing very slow fire for most of the low and left shots and then sped up and sent some high on the target.

    I wasn't sure how my sights would be since I recently got them, but apparently they are the same height as stock U glock sights.
     
  8. kaptain

    kaptain

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouJZTyPuGY"]Diagnose the glock trigger pull problem - YouTube[/ame]

    Here you can see the sights moving low and left on the first two and then mainly to the left on the last one. (from my perspective as the shooter)

    I'll see if I can't get a video of how my hands are to help diagnose the problem.

    Here is the grip I'm using.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM-hdagdD2k"]Glock grip - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  9. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    I don't think it is a sight issue. Betting almost completely a trigger pull issue, and some flinch.

    Your youtube video appears to be resricted. Can you make it public?
     
  10. kaptain

    kaptain

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    I changed the links, I don't doubt that the problem is with me, I can't seem to keep the sights from shifting low and left when pressing the trigger, so hopefully I can be fixed.. haha
     
  11. Sniff

    Sniff

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    Long winded post follows but it works if you follow it.

    I spent three years teaching this almost every working day on the Police range where I was an instructor. Not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I know of what I speak.

    It is a trigger control problem.

    Line up on the target with a (fairly relaxed) two handed grip. Both thumbs towards the target.

    Align the sights and take the slack out of the trigger.

    Once you take the slack out of the trigger, you must use a steady pull to the rear.

    Ensure you are not tightening your fingers as you pull the trigger. Remember the support hand should do 60-70% of the gripping. And it's not a tight grip!

    Relax your master hand. Align the sights, take the slack out of the trigger, check sight alignment and pull the trigger with a slow, steady pull until it fires. Keep the trigger held to the rear for a second or so before resetting the trigger.

    Just let the trigger out until you feel it reset and no more. Then take up the pressure for subsequent shots from the reset position. Don't take you finger off the trigger between shots.

    Glocks have a fairly long trigger pull compared to many other pistols. This may be one of the reasons many (right handed) shooters find them to shoot low and left.

    Think to yourself: Slow, steady pull.

    Try to have only the first pad of your trigger finger on the trigger. If you have the finger too far onto the trigger, you can push the gun sideways when you want to pull the trigger straight to the rear. Bend from the first knuckle, not where the finger joins the hand.

    Try some dry fire too. Dry fire the action a few times while watching the front sight. (Which is what you should be watching anyway.

    When you can operate the trigger without the front sight dipping or moving left as the action fires, that's about how steadily you need to operate the trigger.

    Another great dry fire technique is to have some else ballance an empty case on the muzzle of the pistol. Just beside the front sight. Make sure your trigger control is smooth enough so that the case stays there when the trigger is pulled.

    Then, while holding the trigger to the rear, work the slide to reset the trigger. Have the empty case replaced on the muzzle and keep it there while you let the trigger out to the reset position and pull the trigger again. Do that half a dozen times and it will make a real difference to your shooting.

    Have someone mix in a few drill rounds into your magazine. If your muzzle takes a dive when you hit a drill round, you can be sure that your trigger operation is too quick or jerky. (Ball and Dummy drill.)

    Watch the front sight! That's what is waving around. If you are trying to see your holes in the target, you cant see see where your sights are aligned.

    You can't focus on both at once. If a paper target is stapled to a board, it's not going anywhere. You will still see it in the distance, but focus on the front sight. That's what's moving around and throwing your shots off target.

    Front sight, squeeze slowly!
     
  12. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    You aren't pulling the trigger like that when shooting. The proof would be to load a dummy round in the middle of your mag. The "click" instead of the BOOM will clearly show a much more pronounced movement of the front sight. Will make you feel silly too :)

    For the little bit of movement you do show in dry fire, slow the pull down. Litterally 30 seconds of trigger movement until it seemingly goes "click" on its own. In a sense, you don't make it click, instead it clicks at some unkown instant as your pressure has slowly built enough to "break" the trigger. And while that long slow trigger pull is steadily moving like a train down the tracks, you are adjusting the sights on target as best you can hold them there and keep them there.

    As to your grip, opinions really vary about the best grip. I think you should be firmer. Your left index finger is way too loose and not all the way back to your third right hand finger. Instead, my opinion (and I expect some others to disagree) is to have those left fingers pulling back firmly against the front of the right fingers. Creating a vise. But no shake :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  13. kaptain

    kaptain

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    I don't fully understand what you mean by the front of the fingers, do you mean closer towards the tip of the fingers or closer towards the hand itself?

    And yes I know that my sights move a lot more while at the range, I saw this when I did a few dummy dry fires, the front sight dipped low and left noticeably.
     
  14. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Sniff posted while I was writing mine. You'll notice similarities in our comments, except for the grip.

    He wants loose, I want tight. I prefer to have the right arm pushing foward, and the left arm pulling back. He probably wants more even pressure, like a clamshell side to side (although he says 60/40, so not perfectly even).

    I want a good deal of pressure front to back, like a vise. Left hand pulling back, right heal and web of hand pushing forward.

    Whose grip is correct? I can shoot either way, and both work, so either way the trigger control is most important. And that's where we agree.

    Sniff also has good detailed info about taking up slack and finding the reset ppoint after firing. You certainly do not want to be slapping the trigger, but I don't think you are any way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  15. Pier23

    Pier23

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    What is "thumbing"?
     
  16. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    As you shoot, tightening your grip, especially squeezing your thumbs in, which are along the left side of the gun, thus pushing the gun right.

    Ideally, you want grip pressure evenly all around the gun.

    Having said that, for various reasons I personally favor more pressure front to back, push-pull.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  17. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Ok, I'll try to explain it differently.

    As your right hand grips the gun, whatever is between the gun and the target is in front of the gun. Part of your right hand fingers are in front of the grip (not talking about your trigger finger). Your heel and web of your right hand is on the back of the gun, pushing the gun out towards the target.

    As you now apply your left hand, your index finger, middle finger, and the next finger, are wrapping around the front of the grip, around your right hand's fingers.

    You want the left hand fingers pulling back toward your face. As your right arm pushes foward, and your left arm pulls back, your gun's grip is caught in a vice.

    But where Sniff and I will agree is that the trigger finger needs to be free from all this tension. The trigger finger moves separate from the vice my hands are creating :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  18. kaptain

    kaptain

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    That makes sense, it is what I thought you meant but needed it cleared up.

    I have been pushing out with the right hand and mainly putting some pressure on the gun with the left hand, not really pulling back with it. I imagine that will help eliminate some of the problem.

    I will work on the the trigger pull as well, I am a lot better with dry firing so I will use my dummy rounds more often to help get rid of the jerking motion causing the impacts to be low and left.
     
  19. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    If you watch any hickok45 youtube videos, I shoot similar to him. Except I believe he is left eye dominant.

    We are both actually thumbs down, but I can shoot thumbs forward too. We both use a modifed Weaver stance (Chapman), but I also can shoot isosceles.

    I mention these things in fair disclosure, because to some it is old school.

    The trend in top competitive shooting these days is to forget about push pull. Whereas I bend my left elbow as part of the pull back with the left hand, the trend is to keep that elbow straighter while rotating the left hand forward and down, left thumb pointing toward the target, trying to lock that left wrist in place.

    With good trigger control, you can do it either way. For top competive follow up shots, the locked left wrist helps the gun to uniformly return to the firing position after recoil.

    The push-pull and thumbs down method of old shooters like me helps with revolvers and still does a good job with semi-autos :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  20. GLOCKFAN1973

    GLOCKFAN1973

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    What stance do you use iso or weaver