Need expert advice: Should I close this deal?

Discussion in 'Moto Club' started by lilslyk, Jul 12, 2005.

  1. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    Alrighty guys, I put a non-refundable $100 deposit on this bike tonight. This will be my very first bike. I wasn't crazy about full fairing on my first one, but it seems like a good deal to me. Let me summarize the bike real quick:

    1999 Honda CBR 600F4
    14k miles
    Mild fairing damage
    Rearsets
    Slip on Pipe
    New sprockets/chain (500 miles)
    New fluids all around
    Michelin Pilot Powers
    Jetted

    2nd gear "stalls" in mid-power band, about 7k on tach. Seems like a clutch slipping stall or could be with tranny. Doesn't do it if you go through 2nd smoothly or skip it (obvoiusly).

    I've attached a pic, doesn't show any damage. I got him down to $3400. LMK what you guys think...open to any opinions. Going through with the deal in a week if I'm sure about it.

    Matt
     
  2. Rosey

    Rosey

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    Can you describe the "stall" better? I don't understand whats going on. A burble or stumble that only occurs at a certain RMP sounds more like a jetting issue than a clutch or tranny problem.
     

  3. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    Ummm, let's see.

    The engine doesn't accelerate, kind of stays at the same RPM for too long. Doesn't lunge or anything, just "sticks" on about 7 grand or so. Only in 2nd gear, under moderate to hard acceleration.

    Sort of feels mechanical but at the same time feels like clutch slipping...

    hard to describe really. Worst case scenario the tranny needs rebuilding ($800 or so prolly).
     
  4. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    BTW, being my 1st bike i don't mind going from 1 to 3 all the time...till it gets too annoying and I feel the need for 2nd.
     
  5. Rosey

    Rosey

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    Sounds like jetting.

    A slipping clutch is generally accompanied by a rapid rise in RPM that isn't associated with acceleration--a rear tire spinning up (slipping) on a wet road feels and sounds similar. Also, a slipping clutch isn't likely to slip only in one gear at one speed. It would happen under a variety of high load situations.

    An issue with the transmission seems unlikely also. Other than completely slipping out of gear (there would be no mistaking that), I can't imagine how a transmission problem would cause what you describe. It's either in gear or it isn't. And I've never seen a transmission slip out of gear and then slip back into gear.

    A "flat spot" at 7000 rpm under moderate to hard exceleration sounds exactly like improper fuel metering. Is the air filter stock or aftermarket? What jet kit is installed? Ask the owner for specifics. An answer like, "It's a Dynojet kit" could mean a few different things.

    My first guess is that it's running too fat (rich) on the needles. Without riding the bike it's hard to say for sure. What elevation are you at?

    BTW, it is not unusual for a flat spot to be particularly noticible in only one gear. Certain loading conditions might be hard do duplicate in other gears.
     
  6. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    You bring up some good points. I have some updates/more info.

    He installed a new "race clutcH" and it did nothing to the problem, so he took the clutch out.

    The filter is a K&N filter. Elevation is roughly sea level +/- 300 feet. IDK what we are going for there, but that's that.

    There is no grinding that I could tell going on...which leads me to believe it is not popping out of gear and back in.

    It would be awesome if it's just a fuel metering problem, because I would think that would be an easier fix.

    I'll try to get details on the jet system installed.

    Thanks for helping me out,
    Matt
     
  7. Rosey

    Rosey

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    No problem.

    Yes, tranny problems usually come with "bad" noises. I asked about elevation just to be sure you weren't at 8000ft or something cause that requires different than "normal" jetting.

    Yeah, the costs of jetting adjustments are more about labor than anything else. Needles and jets don't cost much...but knowing what changes need to be made can be tricky. Trial and error solves nearly all jetting issues, it just takes lots of time.

    One thing that might be tried that could (may help, may not) confirm a jetting problem is to ride the bike when it's a different temperature outside. For example, say the stumble is really noticable when it's 90 degrees outside. If you go out at sunrise when it's 60 deg and the problem is reduced you can be reasonably certain it's 1) a jetting problem and 2) it's too rich. If it get's worse you still know #1 but know 2) it's too lean.

    Actually, the temperature of the engine itself can help eliminate or exacerbate jetting issues. For example, a cold engine will run a little leaner (denser air being sucking in) while a hot engine will run richer (hot, thin air being sucked in).

    If it's a little rich on the needles like I'm guessing, then the condition would improve with cold, dense, dry air.

    Temp changes won't always tell you much, depending on a number of things, but it's worth a try (if that's possible). The bigger the difference in temps the better the chance of seeing a change.
     
  8. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    Sounds like a flat spot to me. Is the 1999 model fuel injected? If it is then get a Power Commander and custom fuel map the bike.

    As far as the price goes, I don't know how good or bad the asking price is. Sorry can't help there.
     
  9. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    Just as we suspected, he doesnt' really know. Here is his response to me via email:

    "I believe its a dynojet kit, not sure though because the previous owner didn't tell me. I don't know if you can figure it out by taking it apart and looking at the needles, if you're up to it you can do that. It's surprisingly fast for an older carb'd bike, I had no problems keeping up with newer bikes on the straights. The carbs were tuned recently and the valves were adjusted. They told me that when I had the carbs adjusted they were a little bit off, but not too much, so they definitely did some adjustment. After the adjustment the bike rev'd alot smoother, defnitely had some effect. I have the receipt for that tune up."

    IDK what's the deal with it...
     
  10. Rosey

    Rosey

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    Well, if you decide to buy it and want to fix the jetting yourself, let us know.

    Maybe you could call around and get estimates on the cost for re-jetting the bike, then ask the seller to take that much off the $3400 price. ???
     
  11. quinch

    quinch Turgid Member Millennium Member

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    I wouldn't touch it.
     
  12. DaisyCutter

    DaisyCutter

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    I'd pass on it. I won't spend $3000+ on someone else's problem. Why is it for sale? You know it's been wrecked at least once. There's thousands of F4's for sale.
     
  13. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    It's for sale because he needs the money for his race bike.

    The thing that made me jump on it so quickly was that 2 weeks ago a buddy of mine paid a lot more for pretty much the same bike. He paid $4500 + bought tires, chain and sprockets, and new front brakes for a 2000 with 17k miles. This bike is about $1600 the better deal than what he got.

    Right now in SoCal it's hard to find a decent bike for a good price. As I said before, I don't think I mind skipping through 2nd or going real slow through it since it's my first bike. I dunno, maybe that's crazy talk.

    Low retail on the bike is $3300 with high retail being $4300...and low retail supposedly includes some mechanical work to be done.

    Thanks for the input, feel free to offer more.
     
  14. Rosey

    Rosey

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    I won't comment on price (because my days of reading the new CycleTrader are long gone) but I do think different regions impact prices.

    Skipping second IS crazy talk. As a rule, riding a bike that doesn't work right is dangerous.

    Funding his racebike? Hmmm. Make sure you know whether this bike is an ex-racer (his or someone elses). Old race-bikes sometimes make good streetbikes (IME) and CBR600s are notoriously hard to break. But you have to know how to check it out thoroughly to be sure what your getting.

    Without input from a competent person who has seen the bike in person, you might just have to go with your gut on this one.
     
  15. lilslyk

    lilslyk

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    Thanks for the help guys. I decided to pass on that bike. I ended up finding a different bike, and since it's MY first bike I decided it was worthy of a new thread.

    Again, thanks for the input. The guy was a real cock that was selling it anyways.
     
  16. Rinspeed

    Rinspeed JAFO

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    You're almost always better off staying away from bikes that are jetted as they rarely run smoother than when stock. 14K miles is not really a lot but I think if you looked you could find a 600 with 6-8K miles for not much more. I would stay away from this one even if the $100 was a learning fee.
     
  17. Rosey

    Rosey

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    Only if it's not been done correctly. ;) Most bikes come from the factory in a slightly lean condition for emission purposes. Also, any bike with an aftermarket filter or exhaust should be re-jetted because those things are likely to make the bike even MORE lean, exasperating an already slightly lean condition.

    Carburetor tuning is not bad thing and even stock bikes benefit.