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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, so I just suffered through the TV show "Navajo Cops" on NatGeo. They pulled a guy over for speeding and the officer is beside himself because the driver had a holstered handgun on the seat.

The original officer gets backup on scene and they clear the pistol. The narrator of the show says, "Not only is the gun loaded, but it has a round in the chamber! It's ready to fire with just a squeeze of the trigger!" :rofl: The NPD tells the driver he has to tell the officer immediately that he has a weapon. I don't know if NM law requires the same, but when I lived there you could keep a loaded gun anywhere in your car. Your vehicle was considered an extension of your personal residence.

So they run the gun and the driver. No wants/warrants/etc. They ask the driver if he has papers for the weapon. They want something to prove he owns it. Naturally, he has no such documentation with him (who the hell carries that?). So they tell the driver they are confiscating the weapon because he can't prove it's his.... :steamed: Then the officer who made the stop tells the camera, "we got a gun off the highway." Yes, you took a gun from an otherwise good citizen who was not a threat to anyone. Hope you feel like a man now.

I work in LE and one of my pet peeves as a gun enthusiast is when I see LEO's acting like we are the only people who should have guns. I've witnessed a LEO ask a person for a permit to OWN a gun... in Florida... :shocked: That LEO threatened to take the weapon because the owner had no proof of ownership until I pulled her aside and explained the actual law to her.

Shows like this not only embarass LE, but they (with the cheesey narration) help to perpetuate such myths.

The best part was the next segment of the show was about "skinwalkers." You know... the shapeshifters that prowl the area hurting people. :upeyes: They have to investigate such matters whenever reported. They actually spend resources and time looking for evidence of shape shifters...
 

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Law on the reservation gets more complicated. I've never had a problem on the reservation, having worked there, and lived there. I've had a few people query my open carry when stopping to offer roadside assistance, but that's about it.

State Dept of Public safety is responsible for traffic on through-highways, and generally speaking the Navajo tribal police (Navajo Nation police) are there to enforce tribal law. Various levels of law enforcement operate on the reservation, from local to state to federal, as well as county law enforcement.

When stopped by a law enforcement officer, one should inform the officer of weapon possession, and one should identify the location of the weapon. If one has a concealed permit, it should be presented at the same time as the drivers license, and the officer should be informed if one is carrying or in possession of a weapon. Regardless of the legal implications, it's a wise idea and can go a long way to averting a misunderstanding later.

It's possible to run into difficuty when carrying on a reservation, and one can lose one's firearm. It's best to remember that while on the reservation, one is a guest of a sovereign nation.

In New Mexico, 29-19-10 NMSA (state law) stipulates that one will not a handgun open or concealed on a reservation or tribal land unless authorized by the tribal leader or pueblo.

Generally speaking, the Navajo Nation does recognize the New Mexico concealed permit. State law extends home privileges to the vehicle; one can carry in one's vehicle, except for certain restrictions. New Mexico also recognizes open carry. Again, however, note the restriction on carriage on tribal lands without tribal authorization.

Police, whether tribal or otherwise, generally have little concern while vehicles are on the highway through the reservation, but once one has gone off the beaten track, they can and sometimes do respond with less favor.
 

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Spent my entire LE career in NM and yes your car is an extention of your home and carrying a loaded gun on the seat next to you is perfectly legal. Unfortunately the Navojo Res. as all reservations is a soveriegn nation and NM or AZ laws do not apply. I don't think they would have made such a big deal is it wasn't for the cameras.
Sent from my Ally
 

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The best part was the next segment of the show was about "skinwalkers." You know... the shapeshifters that prowl the area hurting people. :upeyes: They have to investigate such matters whenever reported. They actually spend resources and time looking for evidence of shape shifters...
So Tony Hillerman's novels really were based on actual cases?
 

· Florist
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the Navojo Res. as all reservations is a soveriegn nation and NM or AZ laws do not apply.

I don't think they would have made such a big deal is it wasn't for the cameras.
^^^ This. Thought that about Indian reservations was common knowledge.

Sovereign nation. That means they have their own laws and their own ways of doing things.

Everything on TV is real and factual. Especially the reality based shows. :rofl:
 

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I work in LE and one of my pet peeves as a gun enthusiast is when I see LEO's acting like we are the only people who should have guns.
Don't go to Chicago. You'll be peeved...:supergrin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Okay, first I am not a cop hater. I am a law enforcement officer. Second, the main issue I have is that the weapon was taken because the driver could not provide paperwork proving he owns it. This is unacceptable (unless you live in one of the commie states) and there was no mention of this being a tribal requirement. The guy they stopped was from out of town and drives that road every weekend from his mining job in Farmington to his home in Utah. I suspect they figured an out of state person would not come back and try to reclaim his property.

If people are going to be allowed to travel public roads that happen to cross tribal land, they should be able to do so unmolested. When I lived in NM, I knew that everytime I drove I-25 north to Santa Fe I was technically crossing a reservation. I never once in 3yrs saw anyone but the State Police doing anything on that road.

The other problem I had was the tribal officer and the narrator acting as if the seizing of the weapon had somehow greatly improved the safety of everyone around for miles. In reality they simply made things less safe by taking a legally owned weapon from a non-criminal citizen.

Oh, and I've been to Chicago - great place (to visit)! lol!
 

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Okay, so I just suffered through the TV show "Navajo Cops" on NatGeo. They pulled a guy over for speeding and the officer is beside himself because the driver had a holstered handgun on the seat.

The original officer gets backup on scene and they clear the pistol. The narrator of the show says, "Not only is the gun loaded, but it has a round in the chamber! It's ready to fire with just a squeeze of the trigger!" :rofl: The NPD tells the driver he has to tell the officer immediately that he has a weapon. I don't know if NM law requires the same, but when I lived there you could keep a loaded gun anywhere in your car. Your vehicle was considered an extension of your personal residence.

So they run the gun and the driver. No wants/warrants/etc. They ask the driver if he has papers for the weapon. They want something to prove he owns it. Naturally, he has no such documentation with him (who the hell carries that?). So they tell the driver they are confiscating the weapon because he can't prove it's his.... :steamed: Then the officer who made the stop tells the camera, "we got a gun off the highway." Yes, you took a gun from an otherwise good citizen who was not a threat to anyone. Hope you feel like a man now.

I work in LE and one of my pet peeves as a gun enthusiast is when I see LEO's acting like we are the only people who should have guns. I've witnessed a LEO ask a person for a permit to OWN a gun... in Florida... :shocked: That LEO threatened to take the weapon because the owner had no proof of ownership until I pulled her aside and explained the actual law to her.

Shows like this not only embarass LE, but they (with the cheesey narration) help to perpetuate such myths.

The best part was the next segment of the show was about "skinwalkers." You know... the shapeshifters that prowl the area hurting people. :upeyes: They have to investigate such matters whenever reported. They actually spend resources and time looking for evidence of shape shifters...

Okay, first I am not a cop hater. I am a law enforcement officer. Second, the main issue I have is that the weapon was taken because the driver could not provide paperwork proving he owns it. This is unacceptable (unless you live in one of the commie states) and there was no mention of this being a tribal requirement. The guy they stopped was from out of town and drives that road every weekend from his mining job in Farmington to his home in Utah. I suspect they figured an out of state person would not come back and try to reclaim his property.

If people are going to be allowed to travel public roads that happen to cross tribal land, they should be able to do so unmolested. When I lived in NM, I knew that everytime I drove I-25 north to Santa Fe I was technically crossing a reservation. I never once in 3yrs saw anyone but the State Police doing anything on that road.

The other problem I had was the tribal officer and the narrator acting as if the seizing of the weapon had somehow greatly improved the safety of everyone around for miles. In reality they simply made things less safe by taking a legally owned weapon from a non-criminal citizen.

Oh, and I've been to Chicago - great place (to visit)! lol!
Cameras do have a way of bringing out "hidden talents". That, along with creative editing, can mean the difference between reality and "enhanced reality".
 

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I watched that show as well and scoffed at that incident also.

Those cops also did a great job arresting that woman for the baggie of pot and charging her with child neglect.

I'm sure seeing his parents arrested and going being taken into social services was a much better alternative for that small child.

You'd think a Native American might be a little more sensitive about separating a child from their parents like that.






When stopped by a law enforcement officer, one should inform the officer of weapon possession, and one should identify the location of the weapon. If one has a concealed permit, it should be presented at the same time as the drivers license, and the officer should be informed if one is carrying or in possession of a weapon. Regardless of the legal implications, it's a wise idea and can go a long way to averting a misunderstanding later.
It can also walk you right into problems, such as having your weapon seized or being held at gunpoint by a jumpy rookie.

If no duty to inform, and my weapon isn't visible, it doesn't get mentioned.
 

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I watched that show as well and scoffed at that incident also.

Those cops also did a great job arresting that woman for the baggie of pot and charging her with child neglect.

I'm sure seeing his parents arrested and going being taken into social services was a much better alternative for that small child.

You'd think a Native American might be a little more sensitive about separating a child from their parents like that.






It can also walk you right into problems, such as having your weapon seized or being held at gunpoint by a jumpy rookie.

If no duty to inform, and my weapon isn't visible, it doesn't get mentioned.
I was hoping I wasn't the only one that got a little upset with that show.
 

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Folks, this is Carry Issues. The original post here was about a carry issue during a stop by law enforcement. Please keep your comments relative to the original topic.

If you want to broaden the discussion, start a new thread in either the Cop Talk Forum or the Civil Liberties Issues Forum. Off topic posts here will be deleted.

Thanks
 

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It can also walk you right into problems, such as having your weapon seized or being held at gunpoint by a jumpy rookie.

If no duty to inform, and my weapon isn't visible, it doesn't get mentioned.
http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/docs/10.8.2NMAC_17Nov05.pdf

10.8.2.16(C):
In New Mexico, "a licensee in New Mexico carrying a concealed handgun on or about his person in public shall, upon demand by a peace officer, display his license to carry a concealed handgun."

One should also note that in New Mexico, state statute authorizes a peace officer to "disarm a licensee any time the peace officer has probable cause to believe it is necessary for the protection of the licensee, peace officer, or other individual." The peace officer is required to return the firearm before dismissing the licensee from the scene, unless he or she has cause to suspect the weapon has been involved in a crime, or is stolen (in which case the officer may retain the weapon for 10 days while investigating). Obviously if the officer believes the weapon is a safety issue, he or she may also retain the weapon, and may also confiscate the concealed permit if he or she believes a rule or statute has been broken.

New Mexico does not have a specific statute-ordained requirement to inform, or "duty to inform." It does have a requirement to inform if requested.

Although dated, a list of those states having a "duty to inform" statute was compiled at http://www.packing4life.com/showthread.php?t=2229, although that site is closing in two weeks.

I will concede that where not required to inform it's good not to give away any rights, but at the same time caution others not to risk putting themselves in a position during an interview alongside the road of being "discovered." That is, don't let the officer conducting the stop be surprised by a weapon on your person, or if a vehicle search is conducted, during the search. You're far better off informing the officer in advance. Nobody likes a surprise, and it's far more likely to cause an adverse reaction than simple disclosure up front.

"Rookie" issues can be straightened out later.

http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/ccwFaq.php

Question: Does New Mexico honor any other State’s Concealed Carry Permits?

Answer: The State of New Mexico no longer recognizes concealed carry licenses issued by the State of Utah but currently has a written reciprocity agreement in place with Texas. New Mexico Department of Public Safety is reevaluating the status of eighteen other states currently recognized on an informal basis, with the intent of entering into written agreements with these states to ensure compliance. These states are: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wyoming.
Question: Do I have to be licensed to have a concealed loaded handgun inside my vehicle?

Answer: No. New Mexico law allows a person who is not otherwise prohibited to have a concealed loaded firearm in his/her vehicle (including motorcycles and bicycles). See 30-7-2 NMSA 1978. If you are not licensed to carry concealed in this State or in a state that NM recognizes, you may not have the weapon concealed on your person when you exit your vehicle or motorcycle.
 

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The original poster stated that the officers in this incident requested the individual to produce papers proving ownership of the weapon....and when such papers couldn't be produced, the weapon was confiscated. Personally, I don't know anything about the laws of the Navajo Nation (and if I had occasion to travel there, I would educate myself on such laws prior to the trip).

At any rate, for starters, I feel that confiscating the weapon based on that is wrong...but as I stated, I don't know much about their law.....

That said, the original poster also wanted to know 'who' carries such proof with them: Well, I'm going to raise my hand and admit to being one of those weird folks who do...:)

I keep a laminated 'copy' of the receipt for my carry pistols in my wallet...just figure it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it...
 

· Misanthropical
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There is not really a comment to make unless we know the actual law of where the guy was stopped. It sounds like the driver needs to find out the laws himself and be prepared to either prove his gun is his or disprove the officer's possible theory.

I had a rent-a-cop try to entangle me with his high school education at the beginning of a stop once about a gun in my glove box. Asked me questions like was it registered to me, if he ran the serial # would it show my name in the system, etc etc etc. I just said "Uh, this is Louisiana." and let him play out his fantasy on his own.
 

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http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/docs/10.8.2NMAC_17Nov05.pdf

10.8.2.16(C):
In New Mexico, "a licensee in New Mexico carrying a concealed handgun on or about his person in public shall, upon demand by a peace officer, display his license to carry a concealed handgun."
What is your point, sir?

I didn't say don't show your license upon lawful demand... I said, if there's no duty to inform, I'm not gonna mention it.


I will concede that where not required to inform it's good not to give away any rights, but at the same time caution others not to risk putting themselves in a position during an interview alongside the road of being "discovered." That is, don't let the officer conducting the stop be surprised by a weapon on your person, or if a vehicle search is conducted, during the search. You're far better off informing the officer in advance. Nobody likes a surprise, and it's far more likely to cause an adverse reaction than simple disclosure up front.
I dont' disagree with that sentiment. If I'm stopped, and an officer asks me to step out, or has PC to search my vehicle for some other reason, I would likely inform him that I am carrying.

What I don't agree with is the idea that you should automatically inform an officer, just because.
 

· Adirondacker with a Glock
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Are our COMMIE states the only ones that require us to carry a license with our pistol? I know AZ and VT don't require residents to have licenses, but at least in VT, our neighbor across the lake, out of staters better not have a gun. In NY, my "carry permit" stays in my wallet right next to my drivers license.
 

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I'd have requested (or called for myself) a NM state police officer or a federal BIA agent and we'd have worked this out right there on the side of the road.
The tribal police would not have confiscated my firearm without explaining it to a NM state police officer first.
 
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