Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner
1 - 20 of 49 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My Reconsideration Of The 9mm Parabellum Over Time:
Up to the early 1970s', I would NEVER have carried a 9mmPara for DEFENSE.
The reason being the FMJ projectiles almost universal to it.
It was the .357 Mag. or .45 ACP; both in FP, SP or HP only.​

Then I tried Lee Jurras's "SUPER VEL** Police" 9mm - 90gr. JHP ammunition:


Its performance was impressive in regards to expansion (wound cavity), but less so in penetration when fired into (my crude substitute for ballistic-gel* back then) super-saturated wet phone books. It was then I began to consider the 9mmPara's potential as a ‘true’ defensive round. IF the relatively shallow penetration could be addressed, the possibility of such 9mmPara ammunition with reduced recoil, quicker follow-up target acquisition, and increased magazine capacity, was an eye-opening consideration.

See: **The Legend of Super Vel Ammo: by Patrick Sweeney in 'HANDGUNS' magazine:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/the-legend-of-super-vel-ammo/
The subsequent development and refinement of “controlled expansion” bullets (spurred by the seminal FBI Protocols initiated after the tragic 1986 'Miami Shootout’) have resulted in the 9mmPara becoming, IMHO, a FULLY capable defense round, and one I carry often.

I must add: No matter what commonly used handgun defense caliber/ammunition we choose, it all boils down to bullet placement!
See: Thoughts on The Handgun vs. Rifle for Defense:
http://www.linkedin.com/pulse/thoug...-do-you-agree-patrick-cimo?trk=mp-reader-card

*As an aside: Corbin SIM-TEST™ Ballistic Gel is the current ‘best’ substitute for actual human tissue (+ease of use, its stability at room temperature and nearly unlimited re-use / melt and re-cast), are light years removed from the Thompson-LaGarde Tests utilizing cadavers/animal carcasses as their testing medium. **Today’s best may soon be eclipsed by the use of ‘3D Printers’ that can ‘grow/print’ human organs and tissue for use as a superior, more realistic, medium in ballistic testing. Though cost will remain prohibitive for individuals; it will become a viable option for government entities, ammunition manufacturers, and private testing labs in the near future.

>>>>> Please note: I have no personal or financial ties to any ‘3D’ companies/corporations or to Corbin Manufacturing. <<<<<​



Do you agree? Please feel free to add your comments.

Update

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FBI Decides On 9mm As Their #1 Choice And Have Tons Of Science Behind Their Decision:
FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division - May 6, 2014

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners:
Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target is rooted in myth and folklore.
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high(er) incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident.
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth.
The single most important factor...

Full Report: FBI Decides On 9mm As Their #1 Choice And Have Tons Of Science Behind Their Decision:
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/...d-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/


Further Update

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++​


** See: Researchers Can Now 3D Print A Human Heart Using Biological Material:
http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...n-now-be-3d-printed-using-biological-material
.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,384 Posts
3 posts in 4 years? Where you been?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
3 posts in 4 years? Where you been?
Well; Stroke, Heart Attack, Coma, Kidney failure, Sepsis...I Died...They brought me back...paralyzed from the neck down...Loooooooooong difficult Rehab...Walking with only a cane...Doing better...Praise the Lord!
Oh; unless I have something of value to say/post I shut-up.
 

·
John 3:16
Joined
·
6,565 Posts
Well; Stroke, Heart Attack, Coma, Kidney failure, Sepsis...I Died...They brought me back...paralyzed from the neck down...Loooooooooong difficult Rehab...Walking with only a cane...Doing better...Praise the Lord!
Oh; unless I have something of value to say/post I shut-up.
I do LinkedIn and WordPress most of the time. Some FB.
Wow, wish you the best. Keep fighting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127,247 Posts
Well; Stroke, Heart Attack, Coma, Kidney failure, Sepsis...I Died...They brought me back...paralyzed from the neck down...Loooooooooong difficult Rehab...Walking with only a cane...Doing better...Praise the Lord!
Oh; unless I have something of value to say/post I shut-up.
I do LinkedIn and WordPress most of the time. Some FB.
Wow.

Sounds like you've come a long way...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,080 Posts
Well; Stroke, Heart Attack, Coma, Kidney failure, Sepsis...I Died...They brought me back...paralyzed from the neck down...Loooooooooong difficult Rehab...Walking with only a cane...Doing better...Praise the Lord!
Oh; unless I have something of value to say/post I shut-up.
I do LinkedIn and WordPress most of the time. Some FB.
that's one whole hell of a lot of misery.
God Bless, heal!

9mm is fine, with the right ammo.
i carry a Doubletap controlled expansion 124 JHP rated at 1295 FPS. out of a G19.
good enough for around town threats.

in Michigan's UP, where i might be eaten by a bear, 10mm (G20) rides my belt.
if i feel like the potential for disaster is around the next corner, G29 because it hides better than the G20.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
Everyone loves HST and I do too but when I tested Hornady Critical Duty I made the switch to 9mm. It doesn't expand quite as much as HST but it penetrates better. I keep some of both on me But Im personally more accurate with Critical Duty so that's why I give it the edge. Others may differ. There's no wrong answer. It all depends on personal preferences and where we live and our primary threats
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,305 Posts
I have been a 45 guy for 40yrs. It is still my fav BUT, after spending a full year shooting 9mm in competition, new better job today, I have no issue carrying my g26. As long as the bullet reaches 50cal +, don't care where it starts & it is just flat easier to get those good hits with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taco Junkie

·
Enigma
Joined
·
2,745 Posts
Equal comparison with heavy for caliber HST:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
9mm 147 HST - 15.2'' / .61
40 S&W 180 HST - 18.5'' / .72
45 acp 230 HST - 14'' / .85

The rest is like just my opinion....
My choices, primary carry, no mag limit:
Glock 19 vs 1911/Shield 45/Glock 36 - Glock 19 cause capacity (not losing about 1/2 capacity)
Glock 19 vs Glock 23 - likely going 23 here, only losing two rounds, prefer bigger bullet
Glock 19 vs Glock 30SF - tough choice - 30SF for sure in stupid 10 round states
Glock 19 vs Glock 22 - if clothing allows, Glock 22 all day, same capacity bigger bullet

If I had to live in stupid 10 round state:
No pistol designed to hold more than 10 rounds in magazine on principle - its sickening.
1st choice primary: Glock 30SF
2nd choice primary: Glock 26 or 27 (put a pinky rest on 27 mag base) toss up.

Glock on my belt + spare mag and 2nd option Kahr PM9 in my pocket, like now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
!
I have one yellow box of 95 gr Super Vel
Just sitting in the ammo bunker.
Wonder what it will be worth someday?
Hmm. That's a darn good question...
If you find out let me know.
Cameras & optics Camera Product Electronics Audio equipment
These were selling/tagged at $10.55 a box of 50...back in the day! o_O
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,534 Posts
Great write up and you've done your homework also. Most important part of it IMO, was shot placement. I've always been a .45acp guy, but with the advances in bullet tech, I often carry a G26 and do not feel in the least, under powered. Shot placement still holds the key, no matter what. Look what David did to Goliath with good shot placement. Can't beat that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
... Look what David did to Goliath with good shot placement. Can't beat that.
First Shot, LOL. I'm a Bible kind of person, however, I must admit I've never visualized David and his sling with my studies of ballistics...an obvious oversight on my part. :D
And yes; "Can't beat that."
 

·
Exploring Alternate Routes
Joined
·
5,429 Posts
In this case the FBI "Science" is akin to Global Warming Science. Ever read the mathematic equation on how 9MM is as fast and has the energy of a 357 Magnum? Ain't happening. I get the 9MM improvement to adequate (all the others have improved as well, but they forget to mention that). I get the LE departments across the board are having to issue to the lowest common denominator.
The part I don't get is the need to justify the switch and use any and all propiganda they can muster. It gives the agency a poor image in the ballistics study department.
YMMV
 
  • Like
Reactions: treg

·
JABRONI AUTIST
Joined
·
7,786 Posts
I think the "science" behind why they chose the 9mm had more to do with the financial side of things more than any actual proven results. Ballistics can be a very tricky thing, as humans can be both very easy to kill and seemingly very tough to kill, depending on the situation, add to that the stress levels of shooting incidents coupled along with a persons skill to put that bullet where it needs to go, and it's just a mess of things to take into consideration. The 9mm isn't better at anything, it's just less expensive.

I actually like the 9mm, have a G43 and a G17 and they're great guns. That said, I can see both sides of the coin as to why someone might prefer 9mm while someone else may prefer a bigger bullet.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,877 Posts
Well; Stroke, Heart Attack, Coma, Kidney failure, Sepsis...I Died...They brought me back...paralyzed from the neck down...Loooooooooong difficult Rehab...Walking with only a cane...Doing better...Praise the Lord!
Oh; unless I have something of value to say/post I shut-up.
I do LinkedIn and WordPress most of the time. Some FB.
Praising the Lord for all that pain and misery? I would think it might be the other way around. Oops. Can't post about religion any longer.

Glad you are doing better.
 
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top