Muzzle Loader kb w/ pics

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by IndyGunFreak, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    Did you guys see this?

    http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html

    Now, I've never dealt w/ muzzle loading, or even reloaded for a rifle.. but wtf happened? It 'looks' like it was probably a gross overcharge, was the load that he stated in line w/ published data?

    Scary...

    IGF
     
  2. bno762

    bno762

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    I didn't read through the other links...but man that guy got messed up! He's really lucky that he didn't lose an eye or get killed.

    I know exactly nuthin about muzzle loading but I thought you used a different pwder..actually I thought you used those powder pellets in ML's? But from what I got I guess this rifle you just charge it with regular smokeless like we use in smokeless cartridge reloading?
     

  3. bambikilr

    bambikilr

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    bno672...you are correct about the powder...can't believe someone who has shot blackpowder for 7 years would make that mistake
     
  4. Zagato

    Zagato

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    read the article.

    it was a ML rifle specifically designed to shoot smokeless powder.

    From early 2000 until 2004, I did the vast majority of test shooting of the original Model 10ML and the revamped Model 10ML II for Savage, putting more than 36,000 rounds through a total of 9 rifles. And, like many of those who own and continue to shoot these superbly performing muzzle-loaded big game rifles, back then I thought the concept was definitely the future of muzzleloading. That was, until one of the rifles, without any prior warning signs, literally exploded right in front of my face. I was fortunate. Pieces of the barrel, stock and scope flew in every direction...but not a single fragment hit me. And while I was shaken for some time, I proceeded with caution for several months to try to determine the cause of the catastrophic failure that totally destroyed that rifle. (Click Here for photos and story.) And when I did finally share my findings with Savage, they immediately went into denial, making a lot of false claims about what I had done to the rifle...and the gross over loads I had shot out of that rifle...in an attempt to discredit what I finally knew about "their rifle" - which the company at that time had shot very, very little.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2010
  5. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    That's pretty much what I gathered reading about this on another forum when the shooter was initially blamed for using smokeless....

    I just know that looks worse than even the 50bmg kb not to long ago.

    IGF
     
  6. BK63

    BK63

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    A ML is a ML, not some other kind of modern rifle. Why mess with it? You make it too modern and the only thing about it that is still a muzzleloader is that you load it by dumping everything down the barrel. They now make the inline stuff that use shotgun primers. Years ago when I did muzzleloader hunting I had an old flintlock. Now thats a mountain mans rifle for hunting deer :supergrin:
     
  7. byf43

    byf43 NRA Patron Life Member

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    Oh crap!!!!!!

    I've never heard of a 'smokeless' muzzleloader until I read this thread!!

    No thanks.


    (But thank you for bringing this to our attention!)
     
  8. norton

    norton

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    I know an machinist/engineer who builds smokeless powder muzzleloaders for sale to the public.

    My problem with the concept is, its a way to circumvent the original intent of the muzzle loading hunting season. That is, to give hunters who are working from a traditional -or handicapped if you will- weapon in order to harvest deer.
    The original intent was to give hunters using flintlocks, or percussion black powder weapons a season of their own, before the shotgun or center fire rifle season begins.
    However when the in line muzzle loader came into being-and its not a new concept, its been around many many years-hunters starting hanging scopes on them, firing conical bullets, and in essence turning them into single shot modern rifles. Still, these were shooting black powder or one of its synthetic variants.
    Then as if that weren't enough, the smokeless powder burning muzzle loader came into being. Suddenly you have hunters using what is in essence a modern rifle, its just a single shot.
    I love guns, and think any type is just fine. But I feel that these smokeless powder burning rifles should be classified as center fire modern weapons when it comes to hunting season. And if that were to happen, these smokeless powder muzzleloaders would disappear from the market.
    If you want to get a firestorm started, go to one of the traditional muzzleloading forums, and tell them you think inlines and inlines shooting smokeless powder are the wave of the future in muzzleloading deer season.
     
  9. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

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    I'm sorry the guy got hurt. I'm with Savage. The guy goes hunting with a gun that isn't sighted in, but he's such a devoted hunter that he bought a cabin just to hunt from. He then does an ad-hoc sight in with no ear protection. Sounds like a real consciensous fellow. I'm then supposed to believe that he couldn't possibly have made a mistake in all the variables involved in reloading as he cobbles things together in a quarry. He couldn't possibly have used a heavier bullet, the wrong powder, the wrong amount of powder, measured the powder wrong, mis-remembered the appropriate powder charge.

    As for the supposed design flaw and the "proof" that those pictures show, the two guns I saw in the pics failed in different spots. One failed at the rear of the barrel near the breech plug, and the other failed several inches forward of the breech area.

    To the OP, so you you did the testing for Savage. You must have filed extensive reports with them regarding all testing including the blown gun you expirienced. Have those reports been released as part of discovery regarding a law suit? I'm assuming you will be called to testify in the suit.
     
  10. bno762

    bno762

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    agree with this. I don't see any kind of attraction to a smokeless muzzle loader... IMHO(I'm sure if my opinion is wrong someone will correct it:wavey:) M.L.'s are used to preserve the history behing firearms...and with that in mind I'd love to have an old flintlock or even a new one for that matter...I'd also like a percussion cap rifle or handgun and stuff like that. But a modern rifle using modern powder...just doesn't worlk for me.

    Got to thinking though, some people may have to use stuff like this because of local ordinances or something like that. That way they can get modern results out of a rifle that is technically a ML or something...

    Either way I hope the guy is ok.
     
  11. noway

    noway

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    For all against modernization

    And years before flint they used Matchlocks

    and years before the F150 they had a model T

    Now we have super do'per microwaves. Cave means had a spit and fire




    So what yours point ? They are changing forward, not going backwards ?
     
  12. sarge

    sarge Millennium Member

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    I hear ya, brother. I bet he still uses a manual typewriter and US mail instead of a word processor and email too... :rofl:
     
  13. PBKing

    PBKing

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    Praying for him.

    Just a speed bump in R+D.
     
  14. bno762

    bno762

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    Just expressing an "OPINION".

    I didn't say I was against modernization. You just took a giant leap and threw that out there. I just said wtf'ing point of this rifle but in a nice way. Is that ok? I'm sure there is a niche market out there...I just dont know about it. If the market is for people to get the same ballistics and performance from a m/l as from a rem. 700 in .308 then just say that.

    Now I hope you didn't just hear-
    "Smokeless powder muzzle-loaders are red-headed step-children in the gun community and should be destroyed!!!!!!! Only communist and Jane Fonda supporters use them or like them."

    Beause thats not what I'm saying. Just asking questions about this type of rifle...and expressing an "OPINION" about M/L'S.:wavey:
     
  15. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

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    Somehow I confused IGF posting of this link with him being the author of the article. So my questions about the testing etc shouldn't be directed at IGF, sorry.

    Here is an interesting article by a guy who claims he developed the 10M. There seems to be a more than one person who claims to be THE test pilot on them. This guy claims you can double load them and they won't blow up. I have no idea what happened to the rifles that blew up. What I do smell is the distinct odor of manure that always seems to acompany these things. This all seems very Dean Spier Glock KBish to me. It will soon be an internet legend and companies will be selling special dies to remove the bulge from the barrel on 10M's.

    http://ridgerunner20.tripod.com/thesavagearchivepages/id19.html
     
  16. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

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    What is a word processor ? I use U.S. mail all the time and hate modern tech for bow and muzzle loaders. BUT, I do drive a brand new F-150 (like noway said) and it even has a big Triton V-8 in it. (our model T was getting worn). ;)


    You boys and your toys... :faint:



    CanyonMan
     
  17. GioaJack

    GioaJack Conifer Jack

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    Calling these rifles muzzle loaders is akin to calling veterinarians 'animal psychologists' just because with two swipes of a knife they can change a bull's mind from ass to grass.

    BTW... what is a muzzle loader?

    Jack
     
  18. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

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    Nice double charge!! Or he had a unseated bullet!! I agree with those of you that said these are not "Muzzle loaders" !! I don't care for inlines either! Can't use sabots in our hunting season, no scopes! This makes me want to break out my 50 Hawkins and go shoot something! It isn't a smokepole unless you get the smoke!:supergrin:
     
  19. noway

    noway

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    anything that you push some type of powder followed by a projectcile that you seat on that powder.
    Notice I didn't mention the kinda of powder.

    You have BlackPower for those that like the hard to clean highly corrosive and want to stick to the past


    Or others that want some less corrosive and easier to clean and considered more safer with less storage restrictions

    (Blackpower alternatives; triple7 , RSpyrpdex, Blk-mag3, American Pioneer, Geox, and few others that I've missed )

    Or others that are on the bleeding edge of the next generation in the art of muzzeloading that gives your greater velocities, no corrosion, easy to clean, and easy to fire shots after shots.

    ( Smokeless )

    The original muzzleloader use black powder and a match or some other permanent ignition sources ( bowl of burning oil for example ) all of which is in the past, does not good in wind or water or rain, but you won't here people yapping about using that or downgrading somebody for using that or preserving the muzzleloader with a matchlock , nor would you find the true mzl'er using that and preserving the muzzleloader history ;)


    This is a muzzleloader

    [​IMG]

    This a muzzleloader

    [​IMG]

    This is a muzzleloader

    [​IMG]


    and so is this

    [​IMG]

    Also on the yappy yaps, that sprot off about it's not a real muzzleloader unless your using flint or preserving the blackpowder experience, most don't realize that inlines have been around since the late 1700s early 1800s.
     
  20. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

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    :rofl:


    Hoss, the youngins just do not appreciate the ART of a correctly loaded flint or precussion rifle. I am still, after over 45 years, loading with real black powder FFG Goex, poured from my home made powder horn, and using pillow ticking for the patch material (all self cut into long strips and 2" wide and soaked in my secrect moose milk home made lub formula), and run home by a home made short starter made from a deer antler base and hickory dowels.

    Accuracy ? Just about as good at 100yds as my 7mm rem mag with a scope on it. I won a shoot in Oklahoma with this set up in the 70's while the others had 'even then,' their more modern wizz bangs. :supergrin:


    Nothing like the feel of the real deal.... ;)


    Good shooting.




    CanyonMan