Debate Morality and the Christian God

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Police Marksman, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Clownblaster3000

    Clownblaster3000

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    So God is no longer answering prayers?
     
  2. neon

    neon

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    Maybe not yours. But He still answers my prayers.

    upload_2017-6-16_13-33-50.jpeg



    Molly:)


    +++
    Proverbs 8:35and36
    For whoso finds me finds life, and shall find favor of the Lord. But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: All they that hate me love death.
     

  3. Clownblaster3000

    Clownblaster3000

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    So people of great faith who have dying children... he just doesn't feel like helping them? Thought the bible says if you ask in gods name... there's nothing he will deny you. Guess that excludes you kids dying huh?
     
  4. powernoodle

    powernoodle

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    PM, if you are truly interested in expanding your knowledge base - and your debating skills - consider these two books:

    Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, and Has God Spoken? by Hank Hanegraaff.

    What better way to know the enemy than to read what we think? With your sharply honed debating skills, and some insider knowledge of what we nutty Christians believe, you would be unstoppable!

    https://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751
    https://www.amazon.com/Has-God-Spoken-Divine-Inspiration/dp/0849919703
     
  5. Lone Wolf8634

    Lone Wolf8634 :):

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    One of the things Harris pointed out in the vid is the fact that people like Molly will talk about all the prayers that have been answered for her, a good husband, a good, long life, etc and on and on with the first word problems while people elsewhere simply pray for enough to feed their kids and maybe that they wont die before their 5th birthday go completely unheard and unanswered.

    He called it obscene and I agree with him.
     
  6. neon

    neon

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    The first step in answering the question "why" is to examine the question we ask--"Why?" Are we really searching for wisdom into the intricacies of God's will and plan? Are we really seeking knowledge of God's will or the nature of the universe? And, if we received such an answer from God to our supposed inquiring why,

    a) Could we even understand it?

    b) Would we be satisfied and carry on, business as usual?

    c) Would we be like the Bible says, like "Rachel weeping inconsolably because they are no more?" Only now, with the divine answer, we are even more confused!

    In the book of Job, in the Bible, Job asks the question why he has had to suffer the loss of his family, children, and health. God does answer, but Job cannot bear the answer. He is too small and God is too big! God speaks to him out of the whirlwind, (Job 40:1-5 NRSV) And the LORD said to Job: {2} "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Anyone who argues with God must respond." {3} Then Job answered the LORD: {4} "See, I am of small account; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth. {5} I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but will proceed no further."

    Again in (Job 42:2-3 NRSV) talking to God, "I know that you can do all things, and that they can thwart no purpose of yours . . . Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
    source:questions answered.

    My brother, is celebrating 50 years as a brother with the Catholic faith. He gave up a very good career as an artist to become a brother with his faith. He could have been very rich, but chose to work for God. He is very happy and says he has had a fulfilled life. He credits our mother as I do for his faith in God. I am a Baptist, but I am very proud of him.


    Molly:)


    +++
    Proverb 15:3
    The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
     
  7. Lone Wolf8634

    Lone Wolf8634 :):

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    Harris had a bit to say about this nonsense as well.
     
  8. Clownblaster3000

    Clownblaster3000

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    "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

    Why is Jesus a liar? I'm sure there have been droves of parents that have prayed in the name of Jesus all too happy to give all glory to god for the life of their child. Yet they die.
     
  9. JBnTX

    JBnTX

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    Try praying in one hand and pooping in the other and see what happens.
    Now does that mean God does not exist, or God doesn't answer prayers?

    No. It simply means that we are past that part of the Bible, and we're under a completely different program today.

    Your verse John 14:13 was Jesus speaking to the Jews of his time.
    That verse was never intended for all people, for all time.

    Failure to recognize the difference between the two Gospels of Jesus Christ is the source of most misconceptions about the New Testament.

    The Catholics preach the wrong Gospel to the wrong people.
    Most Christian churches preach the wrong program to the wrong people.

    Read your Bible, it's in there in plain black and white.

    .
     
  10. The Machinist

    The Machinist Please! Please! No more!

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    Scarcity doesn't give life value by itself. You're subjectively attributing value to it. If you confine your prameters to the only place you'll physically live and die, then life is anything but scarce.

    That's not intrinsic worth. You're assigning worth, based only on your personal opinion. Some people think life is cheap, and not worth expending any effort, whatsoever, to nurture and care for it. IE, abortion. Then you have psychopaths, who think slitting throats is no different than stepping on ants. What makes them wrong and you right?

    God has planted the seed in my heart that tells me life is precious. His word reaffirms it. That his wrath was visited upon practicioners of murder, rape, and child sacrifice, doesn't change the fact that human beings are worth more than the sum of their parts.

    I'm not complaining, and just for the record, I don't doubt the value you assign to human life for a minute. I'm saying your reasoning for declaring that human beings possess intrinsic value, are incoherent with your position that there is no God. In your view, we're a cosmic accident. Time plus matter plus chance. If we were created from nothing, then nothing can give us any more value, beyond the molecules that make us up.
     
  11. Lone Wolf8634

    Lone Wolf8634 :):

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    Think of what your saying. Intrinsic. Life doesn't need for me to assign it value, it's intrinsic within itself. All I have to do is recognize that fact. I can easily recognize it simply by caring about those around me. My intelligence allows me to compare and contrast and in doing so, recognize that every life has value, and human life more than most. Because of the fact that I'm able to recognize the intrinsic value of my Daughter I can apply that lesson to someone elses daughter, or son, or mother father etc.

    In my view, God didn't implant anything in you. You're simply recognizing the value that already exists as an emergent property of those you see around you.The sum of the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. It's not a hard idea to understand. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Atheists probly understand the value of a person better than a Theist.

    As far as psychopaths, They understand what they do is wrong, at least enough to hide it, most of the time. But I would say that the fact that they can see value in others is part of the reason they kill, they want to take away that value. Of course there's a whole branch of psychology dedicated to understanding them so lets just say they are exceptions, rather than the rule.

    One more point, since you brought up misbehavior, our prisons are chock full of Christians of all types. Their offenses vary from the most heinous to the absurd, yet the fact remains, Christians make up most of the population. Now I'm not implying causation here, rather just asking whether or not that seed you claim actually works or if people need to be innately good in the first place for it to work?
     
  12. ziggy2525

    ziggy2525

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    That may be the most succinct description of your theology I've ever seen.
     
  13. Clownblaster3000

    Clownblaster3000

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    So then he does sit there and do nothing when people who worship and love him beg for their child's life?

    If so, you're god is evil.
     
  14. JBnTX

    JBnTX

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    What makes you think it's God's responsibility to save that child?
    Why would you even involve him?

    You've been listening to the wrong people.
     
  15. Clownblaster3000

    Clownblaster3000

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    Because I am assuming that a perfect being is capable of more compassion and love than I am. And if a parent were begging me to save their child and I could do it with a snap of my finger... I wouldn't hesitate.

    I could undersrand if it would cost god something. If saving that child would place god in personal danger or jeopardy. But for the almighty creator of Earth and heaven... it should be a breeze. And yet he can't be bothered.

    Why is it his responsibility? Because he has the ability. And the fact that it would take less than a flick of his wrist points to him being a cruel and evil being.

    What would you say of me were I to pass a man on the street horribly suffering, helping him was within my power, so much so it would be the easiest thing in the world... yet I just walked on by? What would you say of me?

    Why am I capable of more compassion and love for gods creation than god himself?
     
  16. JBnTX

    JBnTX

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    Above all the other trolls here, you need to read the Bible the most.
    You're on the right track, but you're headed in the wrong direction.

    The other trolls don't even come close.
     
  17. fowl intent

    fowl intent Banned

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    JB, please tell me what I need to do to become a super troll. I aspire to greater things.
     
  18. JBnTX

    JBnTX

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    You already are a super troll. One of the best.......:notworthy:
     
  19. fowl intent

    fowl intent Banned

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    Thank you...thank you very much.
     
  20. The Machinist

    The Machinist Please! Please! No more!

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    I agree with you that we all have value, by virtue of being human. What I can't grasp, is how, in a Godless universe, such a thing is even possible. Without a creator, higher than us, we're just one of many evolutionary outcomes that managed to survive this long. If we're not eternal beings, and our fate is only to be swallowed up by the natural forces that made us, then belaboring the value of human worth would seem like a pointless exercize to me.

    I gotta disagree with you there. If we are in fact, God's creation, I think we're possessed of far more value than any atheist would ever lay claim to.

    Yes, very good point, and I agree.

    I don't think people are innately good. Much of humanity is given to cruelty and barbarism at one extreme, or pettiness and self-righteousness at the other. I think we're sinful creatures, capable of works both good and evil, but at any rate, feelings of guilt and remorse let us know when we've done wrong. It's not merely a chemical reaction, or an electrical impulse, but a feeling deep in our hearts, that I don't believe is simply a byproduct of natural evolution. So yes, I believe that seed was planted, even if we often miss the mark in following that moral compass.