Minneapolis Use of Force Policy Allows Kneeling on a Suspect's Neck as a "Non-Deadly Force Option"

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by Bren, May 30, 2020.

  1. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    Contrary to what some lawyers have been telling the press or the press have been assuming:

    In Minneapolis, kneeling on a suspect's neck is allowed under the department’s use-of-force policy for officers who have received training in how to compress a neck without applying direct pressure to the airway. It is considered a “non-deadly force option,” according to the department’s policy handbook.

    A chokehold is considered a deadly force option and involves someone obstructing the airway. According to the department’s use-of-force policy, officers are to use only an amount of force necessary that would be objectively reasonable.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...e-custody-said-he-couldnt-breathe/5258021002/
     
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  2. Mr Meeseeks

    Mr Meeseeks

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    Guessing that policy is being re-evaluated right now.

    Not a cop, so I’m gonna sneak on back to the Okie..

    :couch:
     
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  3. PatinAz

    PatinAz

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    Is that to be used in conjunction with two other officers with all their weight on him too? Totality of circumstances tells me that was used poorly.

    Like a constrictor snake uses muscle instead of venom to subdue its prey, every breath exhaled is one less inhaled, until death. One guy on the neck, one guy on his back, one guy on his feet to keep him from kicking and thrashing around. He didn't stand a chance.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  4. ray9898

    ray9898

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    The other 2 officers restraining the lower portion of the body likely had no impact on the outcome.
     
  5. Dukeboy01

    Dukeboy01 Pretty Ladies!

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    I find it fascinating that in a place as dominated by progressives as Minneapolis that such a technique was still allowed under any circumstance by policy. Most of the current and former cops on here, myself included, initially saw the video and thought "WTF!? That's definitely outside the bounds of justifiable. Goes completely against the accepted othodoxy regarding positional asphyxia that's been a part of police defensive tactics for the last two decades."

    And yet here we are.

    Now, to be accurate, it appears to me that he still violated policy in its application. I'm pretty sure that we're still critically missing some video between the time he went to the ground and the bystander video that shows the officers all lined up on him and Chauvin on his neck. It may be that we're not being shown a struggle in which the use of the knee on neck tactic was justified as an initial response. Somewhere between 1 second into the encounter and 9 minutes (or whatever the supposed length of the encounter is now) it was no longer justified.

    And, again to be accurate, it doesn't appear from the autopsy information released yesterday to have been the sole cause and possibly not even the primary cause of death. Poor physical health combined with (likely) using drugs figure into this as well.

    Still, if you leave a tool in the toolbox, don't be surprised if somebody uses it. This type of restraint was deemed out of bounds by the vast majority of police defensive tactics experts and other departments, yet it remains on the books in the progressive la- la land of Minneapolis. You would think that they would have been so concerned with just the optics of it that they'd have banned it without regard as to whether or not it was effective.

    It's just fascinating.
     
  6. PatinAz

    PatinAz

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    I disagree. The middle guy appears to have all his weight on the upper torso. If someone bore all their weight on you in that manner while you were in that position, you would likely kick and flail as a fight/flight response to breath freely. The third guy prevented that by restraining his legs. Meanwhile, number one guy was on his neck. The two others absolutely had an impact of this outcome. One could argue if number 2 & 3 weren't restraining him, Floyd would have tried to move the officer off his neck, or what some might call "resisting arrest". Its fight or flight response. He had no chance for either.
     
  7. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    Yeah, I would think that went out in the 70's. In some other discussion, I mentioned the scene from one of Joseph Wambaugh's books, maybe the Black Marbel or the Glitter Dome, where the chief of LAPD is quoted on the news saying they have to stop choking people because black people don't recover from a choke like white people . . . turns out that was from real life.

    From 1982:

    The Chief and the Choke Hold

    By William Raspberry
    May 17, 1982
    Pity Daryl F. Gates, the Los Angeles chief of police. He keeps trying to do the compassionate thing, and nobody wants to give him credit.

    It was compassion that led him to authorize his officers to use two special methods for subduing those arrested --the "bar-arm hold" and the "carotid control hold," or choke hold, as it is also known. These disabling holds make it unnecessary for police officers to use their weapons.

    It was compassion that led him, a couple of weeks ago, to ban the bar- arm hold, which blocks the flow of oxygen to the lungs.

    And it was compassion that led him, a few days ago, to ask his personnel and training division to try to determine if blacks are more vulnerable than "normal people" to injury from the carotid control hold, which produces unconsciousness by cutting off the flow of blood to the brain. It seems that, since 1975, something like 15 persons have died as a result of the two techniques, and 12 of the victims have been black.

    Chief Gates thought he was showing "great sensitivity" when he asked his aides to confirm his "hunch" that blacks might not recover as quickly as whites from carotid chokeholds. "We may be finding that in some blacks when it (the choke hold) is applied, the veins and arteries do not open as fast as they do in normal people."

    He has been explaining since then that he did not intend to imply that blacks are other than normal. "I have absolutely no apology to make at all for what I was thinking," he said in a prepared statement last Wednesday after a hearing before the Police Commission. "But I very deeply want to apologize for the manner in which I expressed it. . . . My reference to 'normal people' was unfortunate-- very unfortunate--and was meant only to apply to the normal functioning of blood traveling through arteries to the brain.

    "I was pursuing what I believed to be a compassionate course."

    :rofl:

    Prior to then, chokeholds were a normal police technique, taught in academies and widely used.
     
  8. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    The U.S.A.today story is garbage

    What they did is look and see that carotid artery holds were permissible but failed to notice there were specifications in its use and simply presented the info as meaning it was permissible under any and all circumstances.

    The P.D. Obviously felt differently.

    Here are the facts that are going to matter.

    1.He was already handcuffed BEFORE the carotid compression
    2. This was not the case of a lone officer fighting a larger stronger opponent. As already noted, he was already cuffed, and there were multiple officers present (there were two on him besides the one kneeling on his neck)
     
  9. boyscoutG36

    boyscoutG36 σαρκασμός

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    Does anybody know what they were waiting for? Was a paddy wagon coming or something? I understand the initial tussle and arrest, but once they hooked him up why didn’t they stick him in the back of the cruiser?

    I guess they could have been waiting for medical, but even then sit him up. Positional asphyxia is definitely not a new problem.
     
  10. 4949shooter

    4949shooter

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    The use of force policy clearly states the neck hold is only to be utilized for actively resisting subjects. Floyd hadn't been active for at least 9 minutes.

    PROCEDURES/REGULATIONS II.

    1. The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)
    2. The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12)
      1. On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;
      2. For life saving purposes, or;
      3. On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.
    3. Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)
     
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  11. ray9898

    ray9898

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    EMS. Supposedly he fought being put in the car and eventually collapsed. They called EMS at that point and restrained.
     
  12. boyscoutG36

    boyscoutG36 σαρκασμός

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    Ah that makes a little more sense. I have a feeling a new use of force committee just started at MPD to review a bunch of outdated policies.
     
  13. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    That is pretty much what I thought happened. He resisted being put in the car.

    From the P.D. Actions so far. (Terminating all of them) it appears they do not believe the carotid compression policy applies to handcuffed arrestee who resist being put in the car.

    And I doubt the officers attorneys will be able to convince a judge or a jury that the policy allowed using that technique on a handcuffed arrestee simply because he resisted being put in the car.

    And that is besides the glaring point that the compression was continued for several minutes.
     
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  14. ray9898

    ray9898

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    I agree. I have been taught force must be escalated and de-escalated to match the resistance, it is always evolving. That simply didn't happen.
     
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  15. ranger1968

    ranger1968

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    I'm with you....

    This is a complete **** sandwich, and the guys involved need to be dealt with fairly but harshly if the facts support it.

    Having said that, much like 2014, the response of the general public is far out of proportion to the incident itself.
     
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  16. slamdunc

    slamdunc JAFO

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    I'll bet you are right on the money.
     
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  17. CAcop

    CAcop

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    You aren't wrong.
     
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  18. Lampshade

    Lampshade

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    Is continuing to stay on a proned suspects neck for three minutes after they go unresponsive within policy, Bren?

    I’d guess not.
     
  19. Garweh

    Garweh CLM

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    Andrew Branca, Law of Self Defense has two videos on the website (free). First one deals with the incident leading to Floyd’s death and second one with the murder/manslaughter charges. Extremely interesting take on the whole issue. Two words: excited delirium. I do not and cannot condone Chauvin’s actions, but I can see the defense take on the whole thing. Will NOT be pretty if he is acquitted...
     
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  20. Lampshade

    Lampshade

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    People who are in excited delirium are usually just that... delirious. Floyd seemed pretty cogent from the 9 minute video I saw. He also did not appear to be actively physically resisting.

    Additionally, it is well known that prone restraint in excited delirium patients specifically raises their risk of sudden death and they should be moved from that position as soon as possible.

    Floyd was kept in prone restraint for 3 minutes after he went unresponsive. There is simply no defending that no matter how Floyd behaved while he was still conscious.
     
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