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Mexico. Is It Just Me?

  1. Or does anyone else think we need a major military takeover to stabilize them?

    I'm looking 10 years out, when we hand over total sovereignty back to Mexico, withdraw troops, leave the government, police force, and municipal services we have invested in, to establish a republic and representative government that is both equitable and sustainable to the Mexican people.

    5 years out, we have repatriated 12% the population consisting of expats, that left because conditions no longer allowed them to provide for their family. Living in America allowed them to do that with both honor and regularity. The actions of the past 5 years now provide them an opportunity to make that happen in their own back yard. To resist corruption, to stand up for themselves, to devote their energies to strengthening their own country, while going to sleep at night in their own bed, next to their own wife. That they are men of honor dictated they leave their families, travel a thousand miles away or farther, sleep 4 to a room with equally committed men, eat little so there was more to send home, and work every second of overtime available, to provide.

    2 years out, we have finally stamped out every vestige of every cartel, and declare victory. The death toll is in the 5 figures, with our troops, their troops, and all the innocents caught in between. Our success or failure at achieving this objective will be measured by the statisticians and theologians.

    3 months out, we have achieved landfall along the northern, eastern, and western borders of Mexico. Airborne has secured both Mexico City and Tasco, and are radiating outward as resupply flights are landing at multiple international and regional airports.

    Day 30. Secondary troops are being deployed to relieve the expeditionary forces, some whom have been at the tip of the spear since Day One.

    Day 15 Ground troops have penetrated as far as 45 miles south of the Mexican/American border in some places, tertiary artillery barrages are now being more focused on holdout areas in large part to firsthand intelligence with the indigenous population.

    Day -30 The U.S. Border Service today began electronic surveillance in conjunction with Army, Air Force and Marine support in a joint effort to ascertain the present condition, specifically travel points heavily used by both illegal border crossings and drug cartel activity, in an effort to stem the present lax conditions along the U.S/Mexican border.
  2. Build the wall. Stop the flow of drugs and money - both North and South bound. Once the money dries up, the cartel influence is reduced, the corruption ceases, and the people take back their government.

    It's worth dreaming about. Won't happen, but it's worth dreaming about.
  3. It's similar to Iraq, Afghanistan and much of the middle East. You can't 'give" someone what they don't want enough to take for themselves. Our government said we were giving them democracy, and they said they didn't want it.

    I suspect we would give the Mexicans a "clean" country and they would lose it shortly thereafter. All we would have to remember of it would be another American body count.
  4. Mexico is a different culture and not interested in becoming an American clone. Bribery is as ingrained and accepted as saying "thanks" in America. It would be easier to teach a pig to ride a bike than stop bribery, aka "la mordida.

    The Great Wall of China...failed to stop the invading Mongul hoards
    The Berlin Wall....failed to isolate East Germany, helped bankrupt the West.
    The "tortilla curtain" in El Paso TX....failed to stop influx of Mexicans.
    The Walls of Jericho......Fell to the dancing and chanting of the enemy.

    Does anybody else see a pattern here?
  5. Hard to say on this. On one hand it would be nice to add a 51st state, or 52nd if you count Canada. On the other hand all it would do is move the wall further south.

    I'm conflicted on the drug thing also. The flow of drugs from Mexico only happens because the people of this country want them, but the government of the same people wants a war against it. Eliminate that and the flow comes from elsewhere. The root of the problem is the desire not the supply. Probably cannot ever fix that side of it.

    Anyhow what would we call Mexican food if we annexed them, just food ?
  6. Oh, you've just punched the hole in my ideological balloon.

    You are exactly right, forgot about la mordida.

    And you are dead on, is just part of the landscape and as reliable as the tides.

    I have had to work through that a few times with the new hires, back in the day. They were simply amazed that nobody was getting a kickback, that they could just show up for work on time, do a good job, work safe, keep an eye out for each other, and didn't have to kick back a penny to anyone.

    At some point, one of the foreman would come to me and request so and so be put on his crew. Ah, mordida, he had found someone to give his money to, to improve his life. It didn't matter if that guy could do anything for him or not, he had his magic feather and felt better, so that was all that mattered.
  7. Yeah we have a wonderful track record in such things.
  8. A wall only makes it harder to go somewhere, it's only part of the solution.

    You have to remove the incentive. Stop any way that they can make money here, and they will self deport. That means we go after employers, schools, any city, state or gov employee that provides any form of welfare or aid.

    We might even want to let some stay. For those, we need to ID them, then decide if we want to let some stay TEMPORARILY in a guest worker status, or not.
  9. if we annexed mexico the length of wall needed on our southern border would be less, but we would spend WAY more on water purification and plumbing systems.
  10. Your statements regarding various walls contain some rather glaring historical inaccuracies.

    The Great Wall of China...kept the barbarian hordes at bay for centuries and was never strategically defeated. The Mongol hordes were victorious because of ineffective Chinese leadership.

    The Berlin Wall...effectively kept East and West German citizens from intermingling as it was designed until the breakup of the Soviet Union. The wall did not cause bankruptcy anywhere. The bankruptcy caused the wall to fail.

    The "tortilla curtain" in El Paso TX... I have no knowledge of this one.

    The Walls of Jericho...Did not fall to dancing and chanting. They fell to the hand of God. Don't worry, I don't expect you to acknowledge this.

    The Walls of Troy...withstood the Greek siege until the Greeks were ready to give up and go home...only defeated because of the arrogance of the Trojan leadership.

    Certainly an undefended wall is useless, no one is suggesting we build and forget, but I imagine this wall is designed to do three things.

    1. Channel the illegal aliens into an area where they are more easily detected and apprehended.

    2. Delay the illegal aliens so they are more easily detected and apprehended.

    3. Send a message.

    Walls must be defended that much is obvious, and this one will require a president and people with the wherewithal to do so, but to say a wall doesn't provide a tactical and strategic advantage against third world invaders is sophomoric.

    Edit: The most expensive part of most endeavors is manpower. Although the initial investment might be high (but who cares since Mexico is paying for it? :)), the wall should reduce manpower expenditures over the long term if we are serious about defending our Southern border.

    Happyguy :)
  11. Trump should tell the Mexican gov't that it is okay to declare war on the drug cartels and destroy them- not to weakly prosecute them.
  12. Maybe we could assist with signals intel so they could locate and destroy.

    Happyguy :)
  13. That would certainly be in the security interests of the United States.
  14. I'd be Ok if we supported the legitimate government of Mexico in their fight against Mexico with weapons, close air support, Intel, and Special Ops advisors.

    Seems to me Mexican Cartels are a more pressing problem than Syria WAS.
  15. America first. Keep our troops home. Don't get involved in the internal affairs of foreign countries.

    Penalize those who support illegals from Mexico.
  16. I'm glad somebody pointed out the above fallacy concerning walls. They work.
  17. Excellent point. Not to be political or racist but a lot of places get fixed and it doesn't take people long to un-fix it.

    Case in point: They tore down the old, multi-level housing projects from the 30's & 40's. Originally low-cost housing for returning veterans and other lower income families.

    Until the 60's or thereabout they were nice communities (I know folks who lived there for a while). Into the following years they became ghettos. High crime, drugs, you name it. Hotbeds of criminality. They got torn down in the last decade, turned into multi-family housing (4-plexes, I believe) and the area spruced up very nicely.

    Now the "gimmedats" have returned, ambivalence of upkeep with a lot of 'em and this new version of urban housing has deteriorated. Pearls before swine.

    I see Mexico doing similar. They gonna be what they gonna be. Doing it for them will catalyze the reasons they've not done it themselves before now and the cycle will repeat. Just IMO but I have a feeling....
  18. As has been demonstrated at times. Stop the jobs/free stuff and they self-deport. Like taking the sugar and the ants go away....
  19. Trying to export our form of government and cultural values to another country which does not share them is another failed missionary effort destined to cause most of the Mexican people to hate us just as they did after several previous military incursions by the USA. They will not change under the jackboots of foreign invaders, just like most of us wouldn't.
  20. Were going broke trying to fix countries with more savages than can be kept stable. Including our own country. And we're not good at it.
  21. You take over Mexico and it's citizens become our citizens. Big no-no.
  22. We have our own problems. We dumped over 2 trillion in the Middle East conflict. We could have used that money to fix our own country.

    America must stop trying to police the world. Think about the violence in Chicago, the insane prison population, horrible conditions of roads and bridges etc. So many without jobs and we are talking about other countries. I only want another war if we are invaded. Other than that, stay at home and truly focus on making America great.
  23. The punishment for anyone illegally crossing the border into the U.S. should be 1 week of constant listening to the speeches of obama, pelosi, hillary and reid.

    NO ONE would try to come across after experiencing that.
  24. Like or not, Mexico IS our problem. We created the present dynamic, and I will admit my part and culpability back to the days when I was a stoned college freshman supporting the drug trade while buying my quarter of Mexican ditch weed.

    I feel a certain amount of guilt today, for the feckless decisions of my youth, as my actions and those of a few million other clueless kids provided the fundament that has brought us to our present situation.

    We broke it, we need to step up and fix it.

    There are no quick fixes. Let's suppose for a minute, we do in fact manage to build a wall, manage to stop the drug trade, and manage to send every single illegal alien home.

    What then?

    Do a little research, and look up 'domino theory'. Only, replace socialism with fundamentalism, whether Islam or cartel driven dictatorship.
  25. I can't tell if you are trolling me or not.

    You bought some ditch weed and feel you are responsible for Mexico's problems? I don't care how many bought drugs from them. Mexico is responsible for Mexico.

    Build the wall and run heat seeking drones up and down the border. I would also put members of the national guard to assist Border Patrol. I am done with the USA trying to figure out the problems for others when we have our own to solve.
  26. mexicans don't have the balls nor brains to make mexico anything but the crap hole that it is today.
  27. When I was growing up, Mexico was a nice place to visit if you stayed away from the border towns and played by the rules.

    There is some fantastic trout fishing in Mexico.

    Happyguy :)
  28. The Mexican government isn't going to do anything to completely wipe out the cartels. The reality is, they need the money. If it wasn't for drug money flowing into not just Mexico but Columbia too there would be tens of thousands of people starving to death. Cartels spend that money and support local economies.

    What America is doing is fighting a war but, not really fighting a war. You can rest assured every politician in D.C. understands the economic issues in Mexico. They also understand if you legalize it, and shut down the cartels, people starve.

    All the Best,
    D. White
  29. Is that a euphemism for something? ;)
  30. the treasure of the sierra madre is as good as it ever was in mexico, and it has been down hill ever since.
  31. The last thing we need is another bloody failed excercize in nation building- especially so close to home.
  32. mexico has the potential to be a 1st world nation. they of course have fabulous vacation spots, but they also have oil reserves. if they would not go all communist Venezuela and actually put that oil to work for the country everyone in Kansas city would be trying to sneak over there.
  33. This!
  34. I always get a good laugh when some neo-con cuckserative says that Mexicans are natural conservatives....without understanding that all the political parties there are Marxist.
  35. I would just send Romney back to his childhood place, and be done with it.

    We've got higher priority things here.
  36. It should NOT be the responsibility of the U.S. (taxpayers) to take care of Mexico. That's the problem our politicians have. They want to be do-gooders...WITH OUR MONEY! Mexico has a drug problem that they allowed to occur. Their government is a big part of that problem. It should be up to them to stop it. If shutting down criminal activity causes their people to starve (it won't), so be it. There are a number of other countries that are worse off than Mexico. We can't help everyone.
  37. Read your history.

    The US did take over countries in Latin America and ran them with occupation troops and then withdrew.

    The OP proposition is that military might can trump (no pun intended) a culture. Doesn't happen too often.

    Ok. You do a military takeover. Then your people/troops start taking bribes like other human beings.

    I have a better idea, I believe. Found a new Latin American Peace Corp. Attract self described American community organizers who hate capitalism and American democratic institutions. Pay them well. Send them down to Mexico to organize the people against cartels and the dirty local governments. Much cheaper than sending down the military. Gets rid of more than one problem as well.
  38. I want us to stop sending troops to police the crapholes of the world.

    If we want to force Mexico to pay for building the wall, and/or fix their own social and economic issues all we have to do is go after remittances. About 25 billion a year is wired from illegal immigrants to Mexico. Almost 50 billion a year is wired home to all of Central America. We can tax those remittances (preferable) or outright block them. Taxing would help pay for the wall and the cost of supporting illegal immigrants through anchor babies, hospital ER costs, and prison costs. Blocking them would cut about 25 billion from reaching Mexico's economy. I'm pretty sure that would force Mexico to help us police the border
  39. Latin American Peace Corps vs Drug Cartels

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
  40. Yeah, like that will work.

    What will work? Remember the scene from Clear and Present Danger where the cartel kingpin's truck has a laser put on it and a bomb is released from a F/A-18? Like it or not, liberals, that's how you deal with the cartels.
  41. Exactly!