marines view...weapons eval

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by hirs80, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. hirs80


    Likes Received:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Outer Banks North Carolina
    I have no idea of the authenticity of this, but it is interesting.

    Date: February 28, 2010 4:46:17 PM EST

    To: undisclosed-recipients:;

    Subject: A Marine's View Point: US WEAPONS Eval

    Interesting synopsis; most appreciated one is "Alpha Whiskey Romeo's" meaning,
    which you will only find if you read what I have sent below, unless you are a returning
    home military warrior.


    This email from a Marine who's in Iraq .

    No politics here; just a Marine with a bird's eye view opinion:

    US Weapons:

    1) The M-16 rifle: Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinder-block structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents show a high level of opiate use.

    2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial dis-assembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

    3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight..

    4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

    5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!) Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

    6) The M2 50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts their dicks in the dirt very time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

    7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol around out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

    8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

    9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. It is definitely here to stay.

    10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded (name removed) record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

    11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx.. 6 lbs.and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bull**** about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

    12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

    13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Sure-fire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it. I can’t help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

    Bad guy weapons: 1) Mostly AK47's. The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like ****. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. ( Iran , again)

    2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

    3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan 's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155 mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there.. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready-made IED's are supplied by Iran , who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges, in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinder blocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

    4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan 's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan 's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul *** in a matter of seconds.

    Fun fact:

    Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight.
    They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology,
    and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness.
    Let's just say they know better now.

    Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective.
    Most communication is by cell and satellite phones and also by email on laptops.
    They use hand-held GPS units for navigation and "Google Earth" for overhead views of our positions.
    Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent.
    Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE.
    Night vision is rare.
    They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

    Who are the bad guys?
    Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group.
    They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi).
    These are mostly "foreigners" , non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe ).
    Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.),
    and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months.

    Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in various "sacrifice squads".
    Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.).
    These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off.

    The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian) are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters.
    They have been fighting the Russians for years.
    In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites.
    The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt’s, the police forces and the Army.
    They have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's.
    Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured, or gave up long ago.

    Bad Guy Tactics:
    When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time!
    Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur.
    They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing AK's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses.
    They get mowed down like grass every time (see the M2 and M240 above).
    Jordan 's base was hit like this often.

    When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand.
    Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not.
    These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room).
    We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science.
    The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy.
    When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre Gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night.
    Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.

    Fun facts:
    The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand.
    That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber ****.
    The new strategy is just simple: attrition.

    The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover.
    They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and especially
    Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons, and ammo and flee to when engaged.
    They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for inflicting civilian casualties.
    They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt.
    Kidnapping of family members, especially children, is common to influence people they are trying to influence but can't reach,
    such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.

    The first things our guys are told is "don't get captured".
    They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet.
    Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman.
    This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a **** about the war.
    A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi.

    As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death.
    Surrender is not an option.
    The Iraqi's are a mixed bag.
    Some fight well; others aren't worth a damn.
    Most do okay with American support..
    Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better.

    It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake.
    Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went right up, along with their motivation.
    It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians.
    The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters..

    According to Jordan , morale among our guys is very high.
    They not only believe that they are winning, but that they are winning decisively.
    They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them.
    The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted.
    They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see **** like "Are we losing in Iraq " on TV and the print media.

    For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food, and leadership.
    Bottom line though, and they all say this, is that there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency,
    primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria.
    The Iranians and the Syrians just can't stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).

    Anyway, that's it, hope you found it interesting.

    Loyalty, Honor and integrity are not catch words to be used to manipulate and intimidate others.

    Loyalty, Honor and Integrity are both ways of life for a warrior.

    Uncompromising and unwavering in his belief's no matter the consequences.

    Determining his self worth.

    "When it comes time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death.
    Sing your song of death and die like a hero going home".

    -Chief Aupumut, Mohegan
  2. rick458

    rick458 USS Texas BB-35

    Likes Received:
    Jan 31, 2003
    La Porte Texas
    interesting read

  3. Hooba


    Likes Received:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Thanks for that post. I wonder how accurate it is?
  4. Chad Landry

    Chad Landry Cajunator® CLM

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    Jun 18, 2005
    Corpus Christi, TX
    Marines done pulled out of Iraq.
  5. Carrys

    Carrys Inquisitive

    Likes Received:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Green Country
    I'm not saying the information is real or not, I DON"T KNOW.

    But I do remember reading something almost word for word the same a few years ago on the 'net.

    Anyone else?
  6. Glen Rose

    Glen Rose

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    Jul 25, 2009
    Thanks for taking the time to post that, I got a lot of insight into what it's like for our troops in Iraq.
  7. Inyo Tim

    Inyo Tim Senior Moment

    Likes Received:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Eastern Sierra Nevada, Calif.
    Yes, this was posted here at GNG a few years ago. Some of the Iraq/ Afghan vets disputed some of the statements.
  8. mymini40


    Likes Received:
    Feb 27, 2009
    battle creek,michigan
    Very interesting facts about the weapons in war.
  9. hirs80


    Likes Received:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Outer Banks North Carolina
    9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. It is definitely here to stay.

  10. HollowPoint .45

    HollowPoint .45 NRA Member

    Likes Received:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Not saying thats not a real letter but most vets seem to really like the M16 platform, especially the M4. I dont think that the Military has any 1911s to reissue in "Masse". The M14 is making a slight comeback but mainly as a designated marksman rifle.
  11. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

    Likes Received:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Outside the perimeter
    I seem to recall that email from Desert Storm...
  12. NIB


    Likes Received:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Lost Angeles
    While I agree in a few points, I do believe this "email" was just some Armchair Commando's wish list.

    For one, the Marine Corps does not use the M24 sniper rifle. Marines use the M40 while the Army uses the M24 sniper rifle.

    Marine Corps has never issued or used the HK pistol. Despite what you hear, the 1911 is in a very limited issue in the Marine Corps. Mainly to certain MEU-SOC and Det-1 personnel.

    Frankly I hear very little to no complaints from Marines about the M-16A4's reliability because they know how to clean and maintain it for the most part.
  13. JethroXP

    JethroXP Good with a gun

    Likes Received:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Western WA
    I'm curious how they would feel about the M9 if they were allowed to use real defensive rounds that expand, rather than the military FMJ "Ball" ammo.
  14. Marine8541

    Marine8541 iseedeadpeople

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    Jul 10, 2006
    Littleton, Colorado
    My major complaint is it's just too labor intensive.
  15. HighwayStarPP

    HighwayStarPP bang bang bang

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    Nov 3, 2009
    amazing read. god bless our troops.
  16. Peace Warrior

    Peace Warrior Am Yisrael Chai CLM

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    Jan 12, 2007
    feet wet and outbound
    Yeah, if you have two gun forum guys, you will always get three opinions.
  17. MtBaldy

    MtBaldy Obie Wan, RIP

    Likes Received:
    Jul 21, 2005
    At the beach
    Yeah, it's been around for a couple of years at least. As others note, real vets who have been or are there now dispute at least some of the claims and point out technical errors.
  18. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

    Likes Received:
    Oct 23, 2000
    Tejas, US
    If a gyrine or a soldier who purportedly was some sort of "warrior" can't tell the difference between M243 and M249...I probably wouldn't put much credence into this email.
  19. chuckman


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    Nov 9, 2006
    Durham, NC
    I agree. I am calling BS. This is either very dated or written by someone who "heard something fom someone who heard something from someone they might have known." Too many almost-true-but-not-quite anecdotes.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010