Loss Prevention And The Concealed Carrier.
Last year I went to a Duluth Trading Company store for the first (and last) time. As mentioned, it was my first time in the store so I browsed the entire store before deciding to buy a small Opinel knife.
I must have done something to trip someone's trigger because a uniformed security guard followed me everywhere I went in the store. Nothing happened, he never spoke to me and I decided never to set foot in the store again.
Obviously, I'm going to ask how you deal with loss prevention as a concealed carrier but before I do I want to point out that in my state (Colorado) Loss Prevention has the legal authority to detain a suspected shoplifter for a reasonable period to determine whether or not they've stolen anything. And it is a FELONY to resist such detainment and Loss Prevention is authorized to use reasonable force to detain you. This is law in several states.
So you can't say you're going to tell the LP guy to kiss your ass and keep moving or you can but it isn't going to end well.
So, Loss Prevention identifies themselves and attempts to detain you to investigate a possible shoplifting. It's not a uniformed off duty cop.
How do you handle it?
I must have done something to trip someone's trigger because a uniformed security guard followed me everywhere I went in the store. Nothing happened, he never spoke to me and I decided never to set foot in the store again.
Obviously, I'm going to ask how you deal with loss prevention as a concealed carrier but before I do I want to point out that in my state (Colorado) Loss Prevention has the legal authority to detain a suspected shoplifter for a reasonable period to determine whether or not they've stolen anything. And it is a FELONY to resist such detainment and Loss Prevention is authorized to use reasonable force to detain you. This is law in several states.
So you can't say you're going to tell the LP guy to kiss your ass and keep moving or you can but it isn't going to end well.
So, Loss Prevention identifies themselves and attempts to detain you to investigate a possible shoplifting. It's not a uniformed off duty cop.
How do you handle it?
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Thankfully I live in a state that is still free and don't have to worry about that clown show allowing unqualified non-post certified turds to detain me.
But in your reality, you just have to tell them you're not guilty and you refuse any search until law enforcement arrives and then inform them you are carrying by law. They have no right to search or disarm you only detain you.
And then never shop there again.
But in your reality, you just have to tell them you're not guilty and you refuse any search until law enforcement arrives and then inform them you are carrying by law. They have no right to search or disarm you only detain you.
And then never shop there again.
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I expect a lot of chest beating.
Where I'm at you have to have passed the last point of sale and they have to identify themselves as LP. I'd ask to see their Guard Card first then I'd ask to see a manager. I'd even go back to the entrance of the store and agree to wait for the cops but I absolutely wouldn't allow a search until the police arrived.
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What state?
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Generally speaking I agree with you BUT I don't want some Minimum Wage plus .50 cents Signal 88 employee trying to disarm me.
I'm also not comfortable disclosing that I'm armed. I have no problem believing "I have a concealed handgun permit and I'm armed. So I think it's best we wait for the police ." Would be repeated to the police as "OMG!!!! HE'S GOT A GUN AND HE'S THREATENING SECURITY!!!!!!!! "
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I understand. Obviously each situation is unique unto itself, but I’m not sure you have much choice in the matter, unless you want it to potentially go badly. Sure, a guy can be a schmuck about it and run the risk of elevating the issue to potentially dangerous or criminal levels. Or, check the ego, deal with it for a brief period, and then decide if you ever want to patronize that place again.
As a retired cop and someone who’s been carrying basically my entire adult life I already know which I’d pick. To me personally, there’s nothing about the encounter you described worth anyone getting hurt or charged criminally over. Others might think different. We each suit ourselves.
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You ask what "reasonable belief" led them to stop and question you and go from there.
Colorado Shoplifting Law – How Far Can The Store Go To Make An Arrest?
Colorado Shoplifting Law - How Far Can The Store Go To Make An Arrest? By H. Michael Steinberg Colorado Theft Crimes Criminal Defense Law Colorado Shoplifting Law - How Far Can The Store Go To [...]
www.denver-colorado-theft-crimes-lawyer.com
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That's okay as long as you understand that you aren't the arbiter of whether or not their belief is reasonable.
Also remember that in Colorado resisting loss prevention in the performance of their duties is also a crime.
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How to handle it: Like a normal human being of average sensibilities who accepts that in such a situation, there are likely a multitude of rights that are converging at the same place and at the same time. I am not perfect and I do not expect everyone else to be perfect. It will get ironed out but acting like a jackass will probably not make things any better.
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I'm fine with being detained. I will not allow the LP to search me (in MN I have that right) but will ask for an officer to be called who can search me any way they wish. I have the right to say as little about this, or why, as I please. This is covered in the 14th amendment. I will NEVER use the word "gun" in public.
When the officer arrives, I will tell the officer that I have a permit to carry and am carrying (not using the word "gun") and so did not wish the LP to search me. If the LP searched me and took possession of my firearm, that would mean a person without a permit was in possession of a firearm, which is a felony, and there is local case law (an incident in a Walmart) making it likely for me to win a lawsuit. By not allowing myself to be searched by the LP, I would be protecting them (Duluth Trading) from liability. And, I do consent to any search they wish.
After which, I expect to be free to go. I've never stolen a thing in my life, even as a child.
I think being polite and respectful, but firm about your limits is important. "The right thing done in the right way by the right people."
When the officer arrives, I will tell the officer that I have a permit to carry and am carrying (not using the word "gun") and so did not wish the LP to search me. If the LP searched me and took possession of my firearm, that would mean a person without a permit was in possession of a firearm, which is a felony, and there is local case law (an incident in a Walmart) making it likely for me to win a lawsuit. By not allowing myself to be searched by the LP, I would be protecting them (Duluth Trading) from liability. And, I do consent to any search they wish.
After which, I expect to be free to go. I've never stolen a thing in my life, even as a child.
I think being polite and respectful, but firm about your limits is important. "The right thing done in the right way by the right people."
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First, your understanding of the law is grossly flawed.
§ 18-4-407. Questioning of Person Suspected of Theft Without Liability
With that cleared up, if you stole, yes, you better fess up if Loss Prevention or Security stops you. If it is LE, that is different. If you didn't steal, you best be calling the local PD and let them clear it up.
The word “detain” is not specifically related to the civilian since LE is included. Unlawfully detaining a person in CO is also illegal, under a different statute. CO does not grant non-Post certified persons the ability to arrest (or detain). This only provides the merchant to right to try to assess the validity of a suspicion, not prevent a person from leaving the store. This has been proven numerous times in CO.
As someone who's spent most of my working life working for major national retailers, I would suspect that what you might think will happen in your state is not what will really happen. They don't have state specific rules, they have company rules. And at this point most of them are not going to confront you unless they (i.e. security or management) personally see you take something and then they will approach you at the door. Even then, nobody, not even a uniformed security person, will touch you. You can walk out the door and while the cops may be called, thats it.
What happened to you was more or less a "show of force" or "aggressive customer service" approach where an employee or other customer thought they saw you pocket something, so the guard was called to try and scare you into not stealing.
This is why shoplifting is on the rise everywhere. Stores don't do anything and even if you are caught and the cops called, a summons to appear is the most that will happen.
Its your choice how you want to view the business after that, but there are plains clothes security people watching for shoplifters most places now at least part of the time and in the very near future there will be much smarter AI driven cameras doing it as well. Businesses are not public places so your rights are not the same there as in your home or in a public space.
What happened to you was more or less a "show of force" or "aggressive customer service" approach where an employee or other customer thought they saw you pocket something, so the guard was called to try and scare you into not stealing.
This is why shoplifting is on the rise everywhere. Stores don't do anything and even if you are caught and the cops called, a summons to appear is the most that will happen.
Its your choice how you want to view the business after that, but there are plains clothes security people watching for shoplifters most places now at least part of the time and in the very near future there will be much smarter AI driven cameras doing it as well. Businesses are not public places so your rights are not the same there as in your home or in a public space.
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If I was questioned, I would be nice, and offer to empty my pockets. I would let them know I have a CCW. Why cause problems. Nothing in my pockets, no problem, and carry on.
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What, no yelling "IT'S ON, CUZ!" and then blading?
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Last time in a local grocery store a LP followed me around closely , like almost beside close .., After three Isles, I stopped and turned around and asked if he was gonna follow me like I had oats in my pocket, at least he could push my shopping cart and be useful.
He never bothered me again.
He never bothered me again.
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I worked loss prevention in Florida when I was age 18-20, fresh out of high school. It was a fun job. Interacting with police officers weekly in that job is what made me decide to attend the police academy.
Legally the laws were very similar to what the OP posted about Colorado. In Florida loss prevention CAN detain a shoplifter with force after they have concealed store merchandise on their person. Most stores have policies that the person must be given the opportunity to pay and after they pass all points of sale (on the way out the door), then loss prevention can identify themselves and detain the person. Yes, we were allowed to use the minimum force necessary and hand cuffs to detain people, and yes, they can be charged with resisting arrest.
The huge liability aspect of it is you have to be 1000% certain that the person still has the stolen merchandise concealed and that they didn’t dump the merchandise somewhere in the store and change their mind. If you detain someone that has done nothing wrong , it’s technically kidnapping, and the loss prevention officer can face arrest and civil liability.
Obviously most of the folks on this gun oriented forum would be the more law abiding oriented folks in society and not likely to shoplift at the local big box store. If you have done nothing wrong and store loss prevention attempts to detain you for shoplifting, the best course of action is to say that you’ll wait for law enforcement to arrive.
And I’ll remind you that it’s never reasonable to get violent with someone, and doing so would make you the bad guy. The court system is based on reasonableness. What would a reasonable person do if they were accused of shoplifting but had not done so? Most people on a jury would say the reasonable thing to do would be to consider it an obvious mistake and wait for law enforcement to sort the matter out.
Legally the laws were very similar to what the OP posted about Colorado. In Florida loss prevention CAN detain a shoplifter with force after they have concealed store merchandise on their person. Most stores have policies that the person must be given the opportunity to pay and after they pass all points of sale (on the way out the door), then loss prevention can identify themselves and detain the person. Yes, we were allowed to use the minimum force necessary and hand cuffs to detain people, and yes, they can be charged with resisting arrest.
The huge liability aspect of it is you have to be 1000% certain that the person still has the stolen merchandise concealed and that they didn’t dump the merchandise somewhere in the store and change their mind. If you detain someone that has done nothing wrong , it’s technically kidnapping, and the loss prevention officer can face arrest and civil liability.
Obviously most of the folks on this gun oriented forum would be the more law abiding oriented folks in society and not likely to shoplift at the local big box store. If you have done nothing wrong and store loss prevention attempts to detain you for shoplifting, the best course of action is to say that you’ll wait for law enforcement to arrive.
And I’ll remind you that it’s never reasonable to get violent with someone, and doing so would make you the bad guy. The court system is based on reasonableness. What would a reasonable person do if they were accused of shoplifting but had not done so? Most people on a jury would say the reasonable thing to do would be to consider it an obvious mistake and wait for law enforcement to sort the matter out.
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What if they want to disarm you
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