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Looks like the shooter missed the "low-ready" position by abut 30 degrees.
 

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from the RO briefs it's acceptable, and i'm thinking the rule book also. i liked it a lot better when GSSF used the low ready start and the orange spot on the ground
 

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Bustin Caps
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from the RO briefs it's acceptable, and i'm thinking the rule book also. i liked it a lot better when GSSF used the low ready start and the orange spot on the ground
According to the rulebook:
Start position. Follow range officer instructions at all times at each stage. After the range officer has
directed you to handle and load your firearm, you will start in the “ready” position. Hold your firearm in your
hands, with your forearms touching your torso. The GLOCK muzzle is pointed into the impact berm behind
the targets, parallel to the ground or lower, at the ground between you and the targets. Finger(s) must be
outside of the firearm’s trigger guard.

There is no way his forearms are touching his torso... He would need his arms to be tucked into his body for that to happen, not straight out as he has them.

I practiced this Start position (forearms touching torso) in the weeks leading up to the Morganton match. When I got there... I saw lots of people using the ready position of arms pointed straight out, just slightly down from the targets. I would not use the term "unfair"... I would use the term *cheating*.

My $0.02
 

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i don't care what it says. until the briefs say other wise it'll fly with me. for the record i hate it but it really doesn't make much difference in the end.

if you thought it was cheating why didn't you voice your complaint when it'd done some good (if any)? now is over a month too late.
 

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Bustin Caps
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i don't care what it says. until the briefs say other wise it'll fly with me. for the record i hate it but it really doesn't make much difference in the end.

if you thought it was cheating why didn't you voice your complaint when it'd done some good (if any)? now is over a month too late.
In your first post you mentioned the RO briefs, then you went on to say you thought the rule book also agreed with that type of start.
My response was to show what the rulebook DOES say, and I can't see ANY interpretation of the rule book "agreeing" with that type of start. If the briefs are differing from the rule book, then shame on GSSF.

I am not "in on" the RO Briefs, and I doubt the vast majority of the competitors are either. Not sure why you would say "you don't care what it says", when it is the rule book. If the attitude is to "not care what the rule book says" about starts, what is to say competitors shouldn't care what the rule book says about internal modifications (trigger perhaps?) but still shooting in the Stock Division ? I know I personally have wanted to do some trigger upgrades to my G17 that would involve aftermarket parts, but chose not to when I found that "according the rulebook" that would make me ineligible for shooting in the Stock Division. Guess I should use your logic and disregard that thought? I say this tongue in cheek, as I will NOT do that... instead I will stick with my '-' connector as being the limit to my trigger mods.

So while yes, I *did* think those shooters who weren't starting from low ready were cheating... I went in knowing I was not going to be winning anything. It was my first GSSF and I was just having fun and to see how the things are run. I succeeded in both, as I DID have fun (I had a BALL!) and I also saw how things were run. I was happy with my 15th place finish, I expect to do better in the future.

I saw no merit to complaining to the ROs about someone cheating, but apparently there are some big discrepancies about what people think is the right way to do things.

Thus this thread.

Again... shame on the GSSF for having the rule book say one thing, then apparently saying something else in these "RO Briefs" that are an obvious contradiction.
 

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my bad for not knowing the rule book from memory. i thought it said something it didn't. still i don't care i'll follow the direction i get and not the rule book that i don't have memorized. and again i don't like it or agree with it but i won't enforce a rule that i'm told not to enforce. talking to the ROs would be a waste, see the match director(s). show up first thing and you can sit in on the RO meeting.

judging from the high number of guns that are modified i suspect a large group of shooters don't care or don't know the rules either. i suspect the later from talking to them about modifications.
 

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Bustin Caps
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Yeah... I hear you.

And like you said in an earlier post... "it really doesn't matter in the end". I can see myself rising into the top 10 or so, but the cost of ammo and just having enough time... I don't see myself getting so good that I can win a Division or anything.

So stressing over what someone else is doing really isn't going to make a difference one way or the other. I'm gonna just continue to show up, try to see improvement as I go, have some fun... and hopefully win a random gun!
 

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Hilljack
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I just try to do better than my previous personnal best. I have seen several grip mods in Civilian and indoor shoots also without apparent regards to the rules. I figure what the heck. At least the shooter is showing up to help out GSSF events..
 

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just me
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I just try to do better than my previous personnal best. I have seen several grip mods in Civilian and indoor shoots also without apparent regards to the rules. I figure what the heck. At least the shooter is showing up to help out GSSF events..
that is it but rules are rules !! was at a match one time and there was a policeman there to shoot with his gun in the back of his pants with the slide NOT locked back .. I did tell the RO and he told they guy to lock the slide back the guy did not even go to a safe zone just pulled it out and locked it back :faint:
 

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Having been an RO recently, I'll say that we were told that the new starting position (forearms touching the torso, I think they called it 'close ready') is the preferred starting position, but low ready was acceptable as well. The shooter in that video appeared to be doing neither.

The RO's are volunteers, some of whom may never have been to a GSSF match before, much less competed in one, or have ever read the rules. It's possible that RO missed the part about the official / acceptable starting positions.

Based on the speed with which that guy shot the plates, I doubt it made a difference. I mean he wasn't slow, but even with his head start, I doubt he was heading for a top few finish...and if you're not in the top few, all you can do is hope for a random prize.
 

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:supergrin:
In your first post you mentioned the RO briefs, then you went on to say you thought the rule book also agreed with that type of start.
My response was to show what the rulebook DOES say, and I can't see ANY interpretation of the rule book "agreeing" with that type of start. If the briefs are differing from the rule book, then shame on GSSF.

I am not "in on" the RO Briefs, and I doubt the vast majority of the competitors are either. Not sure why you would say "you don't care what it says", when it is the rule book. If the attitude is to "not care what the rule book says" about starts, what is to say competitors shouldn't care what the rule book says about internal modifications (trigger perhaps?) but still shooting in the Stock Division ? I know I personally have wanted to do some trigger upgrades to my G17 that would involve aftermarket parts, but chose not to when I found that "according the rulebook" that would make me ineligible for shooting in the Stock Division. Guess I should use your logic and disregard that thought? I say this tongue in cheek, as I will NOT do that... instead I will stick with my '-' connector as being the limit to my trigger mods.

So while yes, I *did* think those shooters who weren't starting from low ready were cheating... I went in knowing I was not going to be winning anything. It was my first GSSF and I was just having fun and to see how the things are run. I succeeded in both, as I DID have fun (I had a BALL!) and I also saw how things were run. I was happy with my 15th place finish, I expect to do better in the future.

I saw no merit to complaining to the ROs about someone cheating, but apparently there are some big discrepancies about what people think is the right way to do things.

Thus this thread.

Again... shame on the GSSF for having the rule book say one thing, then apparently saying something else in these "RO Briefs" that are an obvious contradiction.


---
Oh Ron! Stop your whining. It's a sport...don't be such a sore loser. At least don't be sore. You can stay a loser if you want too. Just Kidding! :supergrin:
 

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Agreed. The rules must be enforced or dropped, and if enforced must be enforced consistently and equally. That said, mistakes will happen - things will occasionally be missed or overlooked. That is to be expected.

But those cases where violations of the rules are missed or overlooked MUST be the infrequent EXCEPTIONS and not the "rule" - no pun intended.

According to the rulebook:
Start position. Follow range officer instructions at all times at each stage. After the range officer has
directed you to handle and load your firearm, you will start in the “ready” position. Hold your firearm in your
hands, with your forearms touching your torso. The GLOCK muzzle is pointed into the impact berm behind
the targets, parallel to the ground or lower, at the ground between you and the targets. Finger(s) must be
outside of the firearm’s trigger guard.
 

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Having been an RO recently, I'll say that we were told that the new starting position (forearms touching the torso, I think they called it 'close ready') is the preferred starting position, but low ready was acceptable as well. The shooter in that video appeared to be doing neither.

The RO's are volunteers, some of whom may never have been to a GSSF match before, much less competed in one, or have ever read the rules. It's possible that RO missed the part about the official / acceptable starting positions.

Based on the speed with which that guy shot the plates, I doubt it made a difference. I mean he wasn't slow, but even with his head start, I doubt he was heading for a top few finish...and if you're not in the top few, all you can do is hope for a random prize.
I agree with all the above.

He is not doing either thing stated in the rules... but I do not think it is an advantage. I prefer the newer "close-ready" with arms tucked in & gun parallel to the ground... much quicker to the sight picture. That's why USPSA shooters practice drawing, moving the gun up close to the chest, then pushing out to the target... much like GSSF's "close ready".

The only position allowed by GSSF years ago was "low ready" - arms extended & gun down about 30 degrees or more. The shooter in the video is doing the old "low ready", but with the gun held too high. However, any time you have to move extended arms up to alignment, there is some "bobbing" of the arms before final alignment. I would do worse in that case than a "close ready" start.
 

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Hilljack
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FWIW, this past weekend I shot an indoor shoot. The range uses 2 lanes for the shoot. The person in the next lane was a "regular" indoor shooter. I recognized his name from the list of shooters. He started from the same position as shown on the video. I didn't say anything at the time. Maybe I should have. I figured it only helped him on his first shot anyway.
 

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I figured it only helped him on his first shot anyway.
For an average shooter, that can be a savings of anywhere from 1s to several.

ETA...that's 1 or more sec per string improvement. So on Glock the Plates, figure that cut at least 4 seconds from his time.
 

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Kinda sucks that some don't care...saying it not an advantage for this guys so it doesn't matter. :(

That start position would matter for me. It would probably save me a tenth or two per run.

If you are keeping score and it's a sport...shouldn't everybody get the same chance on the start?

And, before anybody suggest it's all just for fun so it don't matter...it matters to every single shooter that actually looks up their scores/placement. They care, or they wouldn't be looking it up.
 

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Re-reading my post...I can see that it would seem that I was taking a dig at some on here. That wasn't my intent. I just scanned through the posts...not really paying attention to who said what.

The point I...poorly...tried to make was that everybody should get the same chance when in competition. The shooter in the video might not be out for a match win, but he beat some people.

I am sure there was no ill intent on the part of the shooter or the RO.

It's just such an easy fix (starting everybody the same).
 
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