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Longshot vs Accurate #9 for hot 10mm and Rowland (even Magnums)?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Lindenwood, Sep 11, 2015.

  1. preventec47

    preventec47

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    I think some of you guys are kind of forgetting that highest velocity equals highest average pressure.
    Generally speaking you can take faster and faster powders and get higher and higher peak pressures
    and resulting higher velocities but that does not make the faster powder the better choice for the
    application. I use #9 for heavier bullets 180 and 200 gr in 10mm because I think it creates the highest
    average pressure with the lowest peak pressure and giving me the safest highest velocity. This almost
    has to be true because the gas mass has to equal the powder mass and 16 grains of powder when converted
    to gas is more gas than a lighter charge of another powder. So the extra volume( or mass) of gas created
    pushes longer down the barrel without attaining a dangerous peak pressure.

    For 155gr bullets I have determined that # 8 is best ( fifty fifty combo of #7 and #9 )
     
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  2. dervisivitz dokes

    dervisivitz dokes Micheal D Dokes

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    I got over 1100 fps out of my little SP101 with PP300MP and 187 grain Cast performance WFN bullets. The same load did around 1320 fps out of my 6" GP100 and 1340 fps from my 8.3" 686. If I recall correctly I still was 1\2 a grain under max. I posted the results in the reloading section if anyone is interested. I'm guessing it would do about 1250 - 1275 fps out of a 4" revolver and 1300+ out of a Coonan semi auto. My full power 10mm 180 grain loads are right at 1300 fps from a 6" aftermarket barrel for comparison. The two cartridges are so close out of a handgun that it's not worth arguing over. It isn't until you move up to a carbine that the 357 pulls away.
     

  3. happie2shoot

    happie2shoot

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    Remember you are limited to the magazine length of the 10mm,
    some 357s allow you to get a longer OAL.

    This is an old post of mine in the thread,

    School me on the differance between the 10mm and .357

    http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/school-me-on-the-differance-between-the-10mm-and-357.1588732/

    First off the 10mm is not close to a 41mag.

    I have five guns that shoot the 10mm with barrels from
    4.375'' to 6.6'', also have 19 guns that shoot the .357mag
    with barrels from 1.750'' to 20''.

    I try to get all I can from them all safely and so does buffalobore.

    Please if you can show me a 10mm load that will beat this load
    in the 357.

    Take note, This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames.

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

    Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

    Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don't phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

    We don't recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

    The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You'll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

    Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

    1. 3 inch S&W J frame

    a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
    b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
    c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
    d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

    2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

    a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
    b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
    c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
    d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

    3. 5 inch S&W model 27

    a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
    b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
    c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
    d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

    Here is the best loads for the 10mm,
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gex6ItGeWQunVZR9B14mseacyEGoreRRrBEXZavfciM/edit?pli=1#gid=7

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gex6ItGeWQunVZR9B14mseacyEGoreRRrBEXZavfciM/edit?pli=1#gid=6

    Here is some 357 data.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12cjblt0pDB-csBqvoDoCLQH_SLRlUNLHkBVDxge1O2k/edit?pli=1#gid=7

    Remember that not all 357s are created equal, some have longer
    cylinders and some have stronger cylinders and some have longer
    and stronger cylinders, the J frame is one of the weakest and it shoots
    that load just fine.

    I cast and load a better version of the BB 180gr boolit, mine
    has two crimp groves to take advantage of the different cylinders
    and it is 187gr, it also has a bigger meplat and will shoot less than
    three inch six shot groups at 100yds in the 6'' gp100 at 1500fps.

    We shot that same load in two different 6.5'' and one 5'' BH revolvers
    at 200yds, all three of them shot 6'' or better with six shot groups.

    We have taken deer and elk with this load and it works super.

    Here is a elk shot with a different version of that boolit in a 357 rifle,
    I had nothing to do with that story, just for show what a 357 will do.

    http://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=155&p=388&hilit=elk+shot+with+a+357#p388

    Here is a good article on the BB 180 cast,
    http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

    If you want a Glock to be better than a 10mm then you need a g21
    and make a 45super or a 460 rowland, I have five glocks that shoot
    them too.
     
  4. dervisivitz dokes

    dervisivitz dokes Micheal D Dokes

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    You bring up a good point. This is one reason I really like the Keith style 168 - 178 grain SWC's. When crimped in the crimp groove they take up the same amount of case volume as most 158 grain bullets. 1300 fps+ is no problem in a revolver with a long enough cylinder. They also have a BC of .286 which is greater than any other handgun bullet I'm aware of. I know your thinking BC isn't important for a handgun bullet, but I have to disagree. The energy loss as close as 50 yards can be substantial and make a difference when hunting large game such as deer and hogs.
     
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  5. fredj338

    fredj338

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    That must be a typo; no the 158gr lswc doesn't have a BC that high & at 50yds, no it doesn't matter, vel loss is not that substantial. Starting a 158gr high BC bullet @ 1300fps = 593ft# at the muzzle & 486ft# at 50, 100ft# doesn't really mean much. The SIerra RNFMJ has that high a BC but that is not a SWC. Even then, muzzle vs 50yd energy is 638 vs 563. Not really a big deal. Obviously going beyond 50yds, BC plays a larger role.
    https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/8350/38-Caliber-357-170-gr-FMJ-Match-100-bullets
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  6. happie2shoot

    happie2shoot

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    Yes, to me the BC is important, that is just one more place the 357 beats the 10mm, my 187gr boolit
    is around .225 BC.

    I live on a ranch and can and do shoot long range, even with revolvers, can shoot over one mile if
    I want.

    You would not believe what we have done at long range with revolvers.
     
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  7. dervisivitz dokes

    dervisivitz dokes Micheal D Dokes

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    Cool, I've always wondered what the BC of those 187 grainers is. Those are my second favorite 357 bullets. I got over 1100 fps out of my little 2.25" SP101 using those bullets. That's over 500 ft\lbs of muzzle energy from a tiny revolver. I get about the same performance from 180 grain bullets in my g29 with a 3.78" barrel, but that's with jacketed bullets. I haven't experimented with lead bullets in the 10mm yet but plan on doing so.
     
  8. dervisivitz dokes

    dervisivitz dokes Micheal D Dokes

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    I'm just going by what the Lyman 49th manual says. There's some good info in this thread if you're interested.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  9. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Always interested in good info. Just not so much in nebulous info. It's easy to look up the BC of various bullets. It's also easy to understand why one type has a higher BC than another. A SWC can't have a higher BC than same weight with less meplat. Also easy to run the ballistics yourself & you'll see that BC at normal handgun ranges means nothing.:dunno:
     
  10. happie2shoot

    happie2shoot

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    If you live in the Boise area I will give you some to try, I bet they will be your favorite after you try them,
    you will do more than 1100fps in your SP101, I know because I have three of them in that barrel length.

    You need to drive them fast for best results, we have shot them out to 625 yards in the six inch barrels
    with a MV of 1500fps.

    Fred, we don't do any thing normal on this ranch, also this morning I saw 16 deer six elk and one bear
    all in about one hour.
     
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  11. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood

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    So, nobody has compared the two over a chronogra0h? :p .
     
  12. Rlee276

    Rlee276

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    I get faster velocitys with longshot in 10mm then with any other powder. But I do like #9,blue dot ,power pistol, 800x does well with lighter bullets but when it comes down to it longshot is the fastest 10mm powder according to my chrono
     
  13. 10or45

    10or45

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    My chrono says 800X is faster. It's also got terrible accuracy. I'm playing with longshot now for volume steel with 200 grain Xtreme RNFP and I'm not getting accuracy with it either. Maybe I'm driving the plated bullets too fast. I love AA9 but I don't want to burn up 500 at 13 plus grains per for steel shooting. I am searching for an accurate medium heavy volume steel shooting load.

    I love a hot charge of AA9 under a 200 grain XTP. Excellent case fill, metering, recoil impulse, and accuracy. It likes a heavy bullet to get it "on the cam" in 10mm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  14. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    With 180gr jacketed and my G20 OEM barrel, I found 800x and Longshot to be comparable velocity wise, and started seeing smiles at almost the exact same velocities (roughly 1325fps +/-). the main difference I could discern with 800x over Longshot was it seemed to be a little easier on the case rims. My hottest Lonshot loads (along with my hottest vv-N105 loads, my best velocity performer in my OEM barrel) really do a job on the extractor rims. For what ever reason, 800x seemed a little kinder on the rims (not kind enough to make me want to drop and trickle that stuff forever.. :) ).

    I could never get enough AA #9 in the case with the 180's to equal the N105 (another very full case load), Longshot (always plenty of room :() and 800x, but, it still is my favorite all around 10mm powder (I only load 180 and 200gr slugs). Enough velocity at high load density (meters like a dream in my Dillon drop), zero flash, very accurate powder. Winner, winner for me. :)
     
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  15. 10or45

    10or45

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    I want to try N105 in 10mm. I got 1400fps in my .357 6.5" BH driving 158 SWC's with VV N105. It looks like a good match for it. I haven't noticed the difference in case rims getting chewed up by the extractor between powders other than all my hotter loads do it....a remedy for that would be great.:cowboy:
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  16. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    If you decide to try the N105 in 10mm, PM me and I will send along my load data. The Lapua load data for 10mm and N105 is ridiculously off, you can waste a lot of powder just getting where the powder is getting "up on the cam.." ;)
     
  17. Rev. Preacher

    Rev. Preacher

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    1BE0994C-3E55-433E-8466-CE3714620A08.jpeg QUOTE="WeeWilly, post: 24564348, member: 183782"]With 180gr jacketed and my G20 OEM barrel, I found 800x and Longshot to be comparable velocity wise, and started seeing smiles at almost the exact same velocities (roughly 1325fps +/-). the main difference I could discern with 800x over Longshot was it seemed to be a little easier on the case rims. My hottest Lonshot loads (along with my hottest vv-N105 loads, my best velocity performer in my OEM barrel) really do a job on the extractor rims. For what ever reason, 800x seemed a little kinder on the rims (not kind enough to make me want to drop and trickle that stuff forever.. :) ).

    I could never get enough AA #9 in the case with the 180's to equal the N105 (another very full case load), Longshot (always plenty of room :() and 800x, but, it still is my favorite all around 10mm powder (I only load 180 and 200gr slugs). Enough velocity at high load density (meters like a dream in my Dillon drop), zero flash, very accurate powder. Winner, winner for me. :)[/QUOTE]


    WeeWilly I have had my best performance with Longshot. Just something to keep in mind, the G20 I shoot is completely built! I do not recommend anyone who uses a stock glock to travel in the upper limits of LS or 800x...
     
  18. Rev. Preacher

    Rev. Preacher

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    WeeWilly how was your Percision and accuracy ? Here are a few pics...... The ducks were shot at 20yrds.
     

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  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    My 200gr AA#9 loads are almost twice as accurate in my stock G20sf vs 800X. Why I have given up on it. I don't care how much powder I amusing, it's not like I am shooting 200rds a week of full power 10mm.
     
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  20. Rev. Preacher

    Rev. Preacher

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    My 800x loads are not very accurate, need to tame them down and find the sweet spot. LongShot is very accurate in my G20. Haven’t loaded with #9 just yet, seems to be a few people’s favorite.