Lingering Questions Regarding FBI Caliber Choice ?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by ChrisD46, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. unit1069

    unit1069

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    What I didn't know until a few days ago is that the FBI's new sidearm is a 10-round capacity. No doubt "collectivist" political operatives are setting up a strawman argument that all America should legally limit firearms capacities, regardless of caliber.

    "If ten rounds is what the FBI thinks is optimum then we should follow their lead". (Sen. Charles Schumer, D-NY)

    Addendum: Searching the subject I read that the new G-19M model is 16-round minimum. Question: Is the FBI going to limit agents' capacity to 10 rounds or is this more "fake news"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  2. M 7

    M 7

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    Since Harrell uses oranges to simulate lung tissue, I am not sure that Harrell's conclusions are worth much at all based such testing. Or are you saying that neither Harrell's nor Taran's videos are equally lacking in credibility?
     
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  3. LostinTexas

    LostinTexas Exploring Alternate Routes

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    I don't care about most of the "Conclusions" I read on the net. Most don't coincide with the things I've seen over the years, but then I didn't make a study and publish it.
    For the orange "lung" tissue that Paul uses, it isn't perfect, but for what a normal person could get their hands on, it really isn't too bad. The oranges represent tissue, and aren't very dense, the air space is real air, and the size of the bags he uses are pretty comparable with 2 lungs.
    Hardly scientific, but for a reference that doesn't require special equipment and a lot of prep time, it does make for a decent barrier.
    If you pay attention and catch the particulars, many of his penetration findings are close if not spot on to the "real" ones.
     
  4. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    Completely fake.
     
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  5. pAZ Ron

    pAZ Ron

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    Because you already found the golden bullet, golden saber! I use these a lot in .40 165 gr & 9 mm 124 gr +P.
     
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  6. Rellik

    Rellik Kwisatz Haderach in Training

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    Don't like my results, pay your own money and do your own tests. - Paco Kelly

    These days we got the bodies. 40 years of bodies. Some with camera footage. I also like the analysis & widom of Claude Warner.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    From the early explanations related to training and support, it appears they made their latest choice based upon the issues they considered important to them, overall. Can't say that's a bad way to approach such safety equipment issues. ;)

    Now that we've had approx 3 decades in which to review the last decision regarding "caliber", including the introduction of the .40 S&W, resurgence of the .45 ACP as a duty caliber and a couple of newer calibers (.357SIG & .45GAP), the "ballistic performance" issue has had more time for examination and evaluation. The earlier late 80's speculation that using a caliber that might offer even just a 1% increased potential for ballistic effectiveness doesn't seem to have turned out to have been as significant as earlier discussed.

    You can't predict which of your people may become involved in an OIS on any particular day/night over the long term, so it makes sense to take the steps that will hopefully enhance the potential for all of them to be able to make better, quicker and more effective hits on intended threats when using any of the common service calibers.

    If 9mm will give more of a practical edge to those using it than the use of a heavier recoiling, larger caliber ... despite whatever slight theoretical advantage may be argued for the larger caliber ... then it's arguably prudent to give them the 9mm equipment that might maximize their ability to be more effective in their use of it.

    I suspect that we'll see further agency shifts in caliber selection over the next 5-10 years, with 9mm continuing to eclipse the .40 and .45 (and .357 continuing its decline). I just hope that it's combined with an emphasis on recurrent training, although it's probably not going to be an immediate 'problem' that affects me anymore, as I've more or less decided not to return to the LE training fold as an instructor.

    Let's see what time eventually tells us of this latest ebb & flow of such things ... :)
     
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  8. archery68

    archery68

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    I ever catch the 9mm golden sabers on sale I will get some. They are good and work!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yes, no & maybe it doesn't matter as much as you might think.

    Yes, Americans have been getting slightly taller since the 60's, by less than 2 inches, but the weight they've been gaining hasn't exactly been all heavier and denser bones and layers of dense musculature, either.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/americans-taller-bigger-fatter-says-cdc-3321552

    Another 20-30lbs of fat tissue may not mean quite so much to any of the commons service calibers as some people might wish to think. Obese may be another matter, just as it's always been, but how many obese criminal attackers do you see in the news?

    Well, comes to that, even if someone has another several pounds of muscle, that doesn't mean it's going to be distributed so it forms a "shield" over critical tissues, structures and organs. It's going to be distributed more generally, and probably not as some "muscle armor".

    The first 2 factors don't really require an "increase" in the purported "effectiveness" of an individual service caliber (more criminals with guns just means more criminals with guns), while the last factor (drugs) may often translate into an improper diet and loss of weight, especially lean muscle mass. Real live gang members and dopers aren't necessarily going to look like the actors who portray them on TV and in the movies.
     
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  10. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    I love the meat target!

    I feel it's about as good as anything else testing wise, until we get human prisoners to volunteer to be shot as part of an early release program.
     
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  11. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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    how many are still vacationing at Gitmo?

    just sayin'
     
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  12. M 7

    M 7

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    Using properly prepared 10% ordnance gelatin is no more difficult than what Harrell is doing (just a different process) and it is a much more relevant and accurate test medium than oranges and slabs of ribs purchased at the local deli.

    As with Harrell's so-called "meat targets", barriers representing clothing can used in gel testing, too.
     
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  13. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    While people always enjoy "backyard" or country range "testing", the bottom line is that what a bullet does to barrier mediums doesn't necessarily indicate "effectiveness" in the manner of a predictable ability to rapidly incapacitate some person, or animal.

    Think of all the expensive, highly refined hunting rifle bullets sold, and yet more often than not the animal caught completely by surprise with a GSW might run for a hundred or two yards before succumbing to something it doesn't even understand. What if it were angry and armed?

    Now, understanding the critical importance of anatomical placement? That seems to work for hunters. Why not apply the same thing to understanding human anatomical GSW placement? Of course, that would probably require someone frankly reassessing their skillset and shooting abilities, especially under stress.
     
  14. LostinTexas

    LostinTexas Exploring Alternate Routes

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  15. IAhunter

    IAhunter Venor ergo sum

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    My belief is that the lingering question regarding their switch to 9mm is what the FBI is going to do once they second guess their choice after the first high profile failure to stop a determined violent criminal. If their new soy powered millennials can’t handle a .40, they’re damn sure not going to use shotguns. Maybe M-4s?
     
  16. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Last time I talked with a retired FBI trainer, he said the only present application for the 12GA was as a breaching device. (Of course, he was also the guy who defined "stopping power" as putting TWO 1-oz shotgun slugs into someone's forehead, so he might've been a bit old school. :p) I was dismayed to hear that (if correct), but then I've been told that my former agency is going to phase out 870 pumps this year, going to having only AR's in veh's. I'm glad that didn't occur when I was still working, as I rather liked having an 870 in my unmarked veh. Oh well, time marches on ...
     
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  17. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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  18. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I don't know what a pretty 45 is, all my 1911s will run what I carry; 1911pd or xd45C, even my 1911OM. The 230gr RGS will feed in anything, even old non throated/ramped 1911s.
     
  19. Lil

    Lil

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    I'd wager that 25% of the US population would be happy if they were toting only an extra 20-30 lbs. It's more like 50-100+ pounds. US obesity rates: 25% + in every state but CO (22%) and many at 35%+ (MS 40%). Too bad we can't collect liposuction gel for some honest gel tests.;)
     
  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yep, all of my working (off-duty and retirement) 1911's will run my usual JHP loads.

    Now, I haven't tried my Colt PTO Commemorative with all of the more current duty loads, since I haven't taken it to the range or put it in my off-duty (or retirement) role for several years. However, I did test-fire it with the older JHP's in inventory when I was carrying it. (Yes, even though it was an early 70's Colt Commemorative I polished the ramp and throat, had it examined by the Colt armorer (before I took the class) and replaced the Gov spec hammer/grip safety with ones that wouldn't give me hammer bite. The possible effect on collector value didn't bother me.)

    One thing I've sometimes noticed, though - and another member has also noticed - is that the Winchester RA45T may sometimes run a bit too hot for the short slide run/cycling of my CS45 if my grip stability wavers at all.

    Considering the standard pressure RA45T ran 802fps out of a 3.25" CS45 when we tested it some years ago (rated at 900fps for Winchester test barrel), it's a bit of a hot round compared to other standard pressure loads by the major makers. Likewise, the RA45TP +P is listed by Winchester at 990fps, which is a rather stout +P load for a 230gr .45ACP.

    I tend to prefer using the Remington 230gr HPJ/BJHP (non-bonded GS) in my CS45, and save the warm RA45T for my slightly larger 3.75" 4513TSW, which really seems to like it, all the way around. (I save my remaining supply of the RA45TP for my larger .45's.)

    In recent years I've added the Federal 230gr HST (standard pressure) to my ammo supply, as it's been acquiring a satisfactory reputation among LE users (according to feedback I've heard as a trainer). It doesn't hurt to have another option for those times when commercial supplies might vary ... and might prevent me from having to dip into my older supply of the USA45JHP, which is an old-style JHP. Also, I think my older supply of Speer 230gr GDHP was finally exhausted (saw 1 20rd box among my older stuff), and it's a bit too pricey for me to want to replace at today's prices.

    Lots of good options among the modern JHP's for defensive .45's nowadays.
     
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