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Legal Self defense curiosity

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by jimbullet, Oct 28, 2006.

  1. jimbullet

    jimbullet

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    One of my colleagues told me a story which recently happened to him and it went like this:

    He was waiting for a cab near the Espana area when suddently two BG's approached and pulled out a knife. Somehow he managed to run a few steps ahead of the BG's who ran after him and when he gained a few feet away from the BG's, he managed to pull out his sidearm and turned at them pointing the same. The BG's upon realizing that my friend had a gun already pointed, stopped at their tracks and seconds later split up running in different directions putting a stop to the would be aggression.

    The question in our minds as we analyzed what have happened, rather may have happened assuming he didnt froze his trigger finger from squeezing it right away due to adrenalin rush, would it have been a legal self defense actually putting in 2 shots each as what we have programmed ourselves for matches with IPSC targets?

    He had estimated the BG's to have been able to stop running after him about 3 meters away from him when he was able to turn around with pistol drawn.
     
  2. PMMA97

    PMMA97 TagaBundok

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    3 basic elements of self defense:

    FIRST, there must be unlawful aggression;

    SECOND, reasonable necessity of the means employed to prevent or repel the unlawful aggression; and

    THIRD, lack of sufficient provocation on the part of the person defending himself.

    Take note, ALL 3 elements must be present, otherwise you will incur criminal liability.
     

  3. antediluvianist

    antediluvianist

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    Have a good lawyer. It's fine if the legal requirements for defending yourself with a firearm are met, but that will be disputed by the perps, or the perps' families (who may go after you "extra-judicially"), or the witnesses, and/or the bribe-hungry cops.

    Keep a good lawyer in your circle of contacts, for this and many other reasons.
     
  4. 9MX

    9MX Rei!

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    had he shot them immediately when he turned..at this very moment the perps are still charging at him..i think that qualifies for self defense
     
  5. bikethief

    bikethief itchy trigger

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    No time to think in that situation. If he honestly thought his life was in grave danger than I say fire at will. A guy with a drawn knife is dangerous anywhere within 21ft to a guy with a holstered firearm. Concealment of the firearm adds a few milliseconds to the draw and the situation is further aggravated by the presence of ANOTHER armed BG. Having only distanced himself a few steps from the BG's did nothing for his situation. If the attackers decided to rush him even when he had his gun drawn, I'm pretty sure he would have gotten seriously cut.

    The 21 foot rule has been extensively tested by various LEO units both here and in the US. I have also personally run this drill several times both as knifer and defender. Results are similar with both trained and untrained knifers and shooters. The results are more than scary.

    Best thing, IMHO, was to run while drawing the firearm and turning to fire only when he had safe distance between him and BG's OR if he had something like a wall or parked car to put between him and the armed duo.

    It was a risk for him to give the BG's a few seconds to decide to run away after drawing his weapon. It could have gone both ways. If they were facing me when I turned to face them and the knives where in plain view and they were within 21 ft., I would have fired.

    Now, firing at them AFTER they had turned their backs to you to run away is a totally different issue. All in all your friend was lucky. Sayang lang at nakatakas yung dalawa to victimize another person another day. The next guy might not be as lucky.
     
  6. Django

    Django

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    Yep. Complete self defense assuming both perps chasing him were armed with knives and that he shot them immediately when he turned to face them.

    However, self defense would be absent if he shot them while they were already running away from him.
     
  7. Allegra

    Allegra

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    the instant I turned aroooound I'd be already shooting naks! :)
    seriously , I hate people who bring knives to a fight
     
  8. bulm540

    bulm540

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    Ditto!
     
  9. isuzu

    isuzu

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    Like PMMA97 said, if the three elements are absent, that could have constituted to homicide. Shooting a BG who is running away from you is already a sign of aggression.

    I fortunately got a chance to learn from a student of Jeff Cooper, Joe Lopez-Vito, who handed us down the skills that he learned from Jeff Cooper. Defensive shooting is very different from IPSC. IPSC aids us to be quick, but not necessarily applicable in real life situations. One example would be when entering the door. In IPSC, we stand inside the box; in defensive shooting, one would immediately stay clear of the door (because the BG would be expecting you there when it opens).
     
  10. ShootCraps

    ShootCraps

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    Someone with a knife is chasing you, that's assault with a deadly weapon. You can shoot them.
     
  11. Alexii

    Alexii Janeway Forever

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    Two BGs, one armed with a knife (or possibly both?), giving chase after your friend tried to run away. From the story given, the attack was unprovoked, as he was just standing there waiting for a cab; reasonable means was employed to repel the attack, as the defender tried to run away; and apparently there was lack of sufficient provocation on part of the defender.

    If we analyze the dynamics of the encounter, the defender has disparity of force working against him (two against one, one armed with a knife). Add that to the proximity of the encounter and the fact that the BGs gave chase after the defender ran away.

    He was justified to deck these scumbags to the ground.
     
  12. kristiansen

    kristiansen Birdwatcher

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    2 BG's running after you with knives?turn around and shoot! unless you want to die first.if that happened to me,i will shoot.the adrenalin will tell you to stay alive.just my 2 cents.but glad your friend was ok and unharmed.
     
  13. kristiansen

    kristiansen Birdwatcher

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    i was also held up by 2 punks while waiting for a jeepney ride when i was a student,maybe 15 yrs, ago,when the scum was pulling something from his jacket,i just ran as fast as i can.luckily,they did not run after me.or mabilis lang ako tatakbo hehehe:supergrin:
     
  14. saki1611

    saki1611 BOG's #1611

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    IMHO i agree with antedeluvianist, you must have a good lawyer to justify your action/s whether it's legal or not. one chracteristic that goes with having or owning a gun, especially for the purpose of self defense, is determination to shoot the gun when it's necessary. if your senses dictate that you're in danger, go and bang! then let your lawyer do his job. otherwise if you'll have second thought because of legal issues, the BGs might be the one facing the charges and you 6ft below the ground. in my work we have a saying " mabuti na ako ang magpaliwang keysa ako ang ipaliwanag..."
     
  15. jayjay00

    jayjay00

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    "lack of sufficient provocation on the part of the person defending himself"

    I understand the first 2 but I fail to understand what this exactly means... :shakehead:
     
  16. Allegra

    Allegra

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    pagkaintindi ko , you didnt make puno his salop at the time
    You just ended what he started
     
  17. bikethief

    bikethief itchy trigger

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    Haha! Spoken like a true sigang kolehiyala!
    Pwede rin ba, you just made ganti 'cos he was being, like you know, lintik?
     
  18. jimbullet

    jimbullet

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    I told my friend that he was indeed lucky that he got away with no harm. Dont tell me that if he did shoot the BG's, my friend has to shoulder the hospital expenses if he happens to be in critical condition or even the funeral service if he is DOA?
     
  19. saki1611

    saki1611 BOG's #1611

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    of course not, in case he shot them because of self defense. the expenses in the hospital and funeral service are among the consequences that those BG's should get. it was not an accident, they have intention to rob or hurt your friend. what if it's your friend who got hurt? of course they wont even bother to look back at him and give an ounce of pity. just my two cents...:thumbsup:
     
  20. MELBU

    MELBU Ann2Tero

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    Thats right folks! I totally agree. Thats why i have lawyer friends
    nearby just in case.
    You dont have to worry about the rules in self defense as long as you have a good lawyer to defend you.:supergrin: :supergrin: :supergrin: