Law enforcement and long guns

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by Folsom_Prison, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. bdcochran

    bdcochran

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    I have been considering Mr. Biden's comments and guns and how the police should them.

    We should do a small test in my city, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, and New York City.

    1. establish a special local police unit.
    Do not issue saps, night sticks, tasers, handguns, rifles. Issue only 12 ga shotguns with options of slugs or no. 4 buck.
    2. follow the procedure suggested by Mr. Biden, shoot for the leg.

    It might work.
    1. obviates the need for psychological counseling of the perp.
    2. obviates demands on the healthcare system caused by perps resisting arrest.
    3. terminates any concerns about rehabilitation for people arrested, arrested time and again.

    I think this suggestion will be appealing to members of the forum with a sense of humor and the a-bomb solution to any problem crowd here.
     
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  2. ChrisJn

    ChrisJn "Old Bill"

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  3. SAR

    SAR CLM

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    I carried an MP5SD back in the 80’s. It was a great weapon, but getting a little long in the tooth. Our Department purchased a number of MP7’s. These are a modern day update. While they seem to work well, I don’t see them as a replacement for a handgun or a rifle. It tries to be a compromise and while it works well, it’s still too big to be a handgun and isn’t optimal for patrol every day sidearm carry. Overall, rifles are cheaper and we already have a lot of them in service, doubt we will replace them with MP-7s. For now, they are relegated to speciality use, such as motors.
     
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  4. vista461

    vista461

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    We only have AR’s not shotguns. If I’m going to a call where I know someone is armed the rifle is coming with. There have been a few when I find out too late that the person is armed, so you work with what you’ve got.
     
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  5. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    Don’t just wanna go four a double barrel instead? Lol
     
  6. CAcop

    CAcop

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    We had MP5s in 10mm until 2001. They were nice and compact.

    A Santa Clara agency issues them for motors. That makes sense. You could lock them up in a saddle bag. They can still punch through body armor. I told my department to get them for motors since they wanted to mount ARs on their bike but since staffing went in the toilet the motors are all back in patrol.
     
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  7. bdcochran

    bdcochran

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  8. Tomcat1977

    Tomcat1977 "Cynical Little me"

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    The reason I deleted is maybe because of what I posted any gangsters reading might have gotten a little to much info. I can't do that to these guys out there.

    But yes, anyone with 1/2 a brain realizes the edge a long gun gives you. The problem is getting guys, and most of all command, to understand this. And to back the training and deployment of them.
     
  9. billy_56081

    billy_56081

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    Not a cop here, but I've always had the opinion that a handgun is there to buy you time to get to a real gun.
     
  10. Dom Pastore

    Dom Pastore dpast32

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    What I've noted regarding Long Arms in Law Enforcement is that they tend to be dictated somewhat by 'regional', or local concerns. Such as, out West their usage tends to more commonplace, except of course in the more populous areas. Same can be said for the mid West regions. As you head towards the Eastern States, it tends to be much more regulated. In New England many Agencies only issue their Patrol Sgts either a Shotgun, or as we've seen increasingly lately, an CAR15 series weapon, usually semi-auto only. [ Hey, even the Bureau's used to use semi-auto MP5SF's. Although their SWAT Teams did have full auto capability. ] Some Dept's in addition to the Sgt only having a Rifle, many times even the Sgts require approval from a Superior to bring out the big stuff ! However, things do appear to be loosening up a bit, depending upon of course the area in question. Remember, it's usually the elected public officials that set precedent, & determine what & when their Law Enforcement may do. We had everything during my tenure, from old M1 Carbines when I went on, to Colt AR15's [SP1's] Rem. 870 / Moss. 500 & 590's, H&K MP5's, up to SIG 552 in 5.56 with Aim Point's when I finally Retired. I really liked those SIG 552's, but I would have preferred a simple Colt 6921 for the sake of streamlining the training process. Many of our personnel were ex-Military, & or were currently Natl. Guard, so we're quite familiar with the AR System, as opposed to teaching them a different weapon. Well, again I was overruled, & due to the SIG Sales Rep doing such a great job of marketing, we went with the 552, & became an all Sig-Sauer Dept. As far as I know, that's were it stands today. So, make no mistake when referring to L.E. Longuns, everything to do with their use, choice of, etc. is dependent upon politics & someone's particular preferences. At least that's my take on the subject, for better or worse.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  11. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

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    Long guns for the NYPD would be a mistake for most patrol units. The perps will steal it out of the cars while the two cops are on a job on the 18th floor. The specialized units have them and like anything else are just minutes away when seconds count but in this city environment, perpetrators using long guns are not common. It does happen but not common. It’s usually a handgun. Other departments probably have more an issue with long guns. And the distances involved here aren’t as far as cities in the Midwest or west. It’s usually under 15 yards here. And statistically usually under 7 yards .
    Unlike in past years where ESU and HQ security had the long guns, other units have them now such as SRG, CRC and narcotics (special circumstances for them) . For daily use around here, a long gun would be more trouble than it’s worth for most day to day operations here.
     
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  12. CAcop

    CAcop

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    You could do it but it would would have to be locked in a safe in the trunk. The real problem is giving someone enough training. I ran the numbers just for 8 hours quarterly for the NYPD and the number of officers per class would be too big for general issue of long guns.

    I never liked teaching more than 5 on the line at any one time. Start getting to dialing in rifles to the officer and it just isn't worth it unless it it 2 or 3 student per instructor. You get one person with their chains wrapped around the axle and the other 20 students are waiting 5 minutes to get them on track and almost immediately move onto the next course.

    Ideally it would be a class of no more than 5 people on a range with 1 instructor and really give them quality time over the course of one day. That's 7,600 classes for 38,000 cops. That's 20 classes every day for one year.

    I totally get playing the odds.
     
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  13. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

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    Again, the specialized units do the locked in the trunk thing. The long guns would get stolen here for normal patrol guys. Locked the trunk, but the two cops are too far away to prevent perps from cutting the safe for the gun. Patrol cops here often are in housing projects on the top floor. They would never make it back to the car in time to prevent it.
     
  14. SAR

    SAR CLM

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    C35C6184-68CB-4111-8849-CC204AF03C69.jpeg
    We’re not exactly sleepy hollow here, but we’ve deemed that the risks outweigh the benefits. We carry ours up front next to our shotguns and 40mm launchers in a tandem rack. Usually when I go solo, I’ll just put a rifle up front to have it nearby, however, the rear of our SUVs are caged up so we can also store our rifles, shotguns and 40mm launchers in the back if we so desire. The rack system is a pain, so generally I never put more than a rifle up front. During the recent protests a number of cars burned so for a few days I didn’t take my rifle out.

    Our rifle and slug training runs year round, four days a week, on a dedicated long gun range, except there is a hiatus during this Covid pandemic. Our rifle recert is 8 hours long and consists of qualification and TAC drills. Then once a year, we do a straight rifle qualification without TAC drills.

    There are logistical issues for a large department, but I’m glad we are able to still offer rifles to our troops.
     
  15. Bomber Nav

    Bomber Nav

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    Not a LEO, but HOLY COW, when the perp grabbed that officer my heart jumped. Even after being shot the first time. It's clear the officers didn't want to shoot him; their restraint is amazing. Surprised when the perp got back up after being shot. Maybe with a little 9mm??

    Probably wouldn't of gotten back up if it had been with a 12 gauge. Just saying...

    In any case, my hat's off to all you LEOs out there.
     
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  16. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    In my area, it’s all but certain you’ll find at least one rifle, usually a few and a handgun or three, in any truck found off the Interstate. Every rifle will have a scope, usually, an inexpensive 3-9 or 3-15x. Most vehicle occupants can hit a coyote at 100 yards with said rifle while at a 0.25 BAC.
     
  17. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

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    See, I deal so little with rifles that .25 BAC is a different language to me-lol
     
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  18. Maccabeus

    Maccabeus

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    I'm too far removed to comment knowledgably on current practice, but in my corner of policing in the 90s, long gun use was few and far between. My impression is that it has increased a fair amount since then.

    My agency didn't issue us anything. There was a locker full of beat up old Remington 870s which we could take out with us if we chose to do so. No one had ARs except our SRT guys.

    Also, no vehicles in our fleet had mounts in the cabin so you either had to put the shotgun in the trunk or just lay it loose somewhere up front.

    We also had minimal training with the shotguns. Needless to say, most officers didn't take one out on patrol. I often did, but with no quick-access, no slings, and more familiarity with my sidearm, it didn't get deployed very often.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  19. Rezdawg

    Rezdawg

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    UP here in my neck of the woods we’ve had 4 long gun deployments in the last week. Granted all 4 of those deployments happened to be for unruly bears but still they came out.

    I’ve been encouraging my officers to deploy their Rifle anytime they feel the need to draw their pistol. We carry SBRs racked in the front seat and Less-Lethal Shotguns in the trunk.

    I think that when we go for our weekly practice, we are going to practice transitioning to a behind the back slung position and moving in with handcuffs.
     
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  20. JohnnyReb

    JohnnyReb Lifetime Member

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    Last week I followed an attempted murder suspect with my AR in my lap as I was driving. When we finally got to a place where it was safe to do a high risk stop, I was the only guy with a rifle out.
     
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