Law enforcement and long guns

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by Folsom_Prison, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    I’m not a cop, my hat is off to those that are. Worked corrections for a bit and that’s as far as I went dealing with the goons.

    Just something I’ve observed and have been thinking about watching a couple different channels on YouTube like ASP or police activity, or a couple personal instances that happened last year.

    Seems the long guns rarely ever come out. I’m not talking about traffic stops, i understand that’s not a very practical standpoint. I’m more so getting at all the.... man with a knife call, man with a gun call for example.

    Not sure if the local departments carry a shotgun anymore but I do know they have AR’s. On top of that most of the major departments around me have gone to riding double. As with some of the videos I’ve seen from other parts of the country.

    I guess with the law enforcement aspect you have somewhat of a advantage since somebody made a call. That said I understand not all the calls are accurate. I realize there is no text book example of how things will play out. Not trying to sound like some armchair quarterback, just curious what gives?

    This one comes to mind. These guys were riding double, assuming they knew he had a knife they both jump out with pistols in hand. Do some departments not issue long guns? These guys showed a ton of restraint and clearly didn’t want to shoot him. Things went south in a hurry at the end. This video is the main one to make me pose this question. Couldn’t help but think if the officer in the passenger seat had hopped out with a rifle or shotgun they possibly could have stopped him sooner. The handgun wasn’t very effective until he went for broke. Had the one guy been solo this could have ended very badly.

    Thoughts?


    View: https://youtu.be/9NwWado4SVY
     
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  2. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    Can’t speak for other places. But here, when a weapon is mentioned, I show up with my long gun. Either shotgun or AR.
     

  3. VicFangio

    VicFangio

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    Love the shotgun on high risk stops. AR for possible barricade or other gun call where distance is your friend. Knife or other deadly weapon calls are tricky. You're probably far more likely to end up in a foot chase, at which time that long gun turns into a serious liability (ask me how I know). Just my 2 cents, but that's probably why most OISs involving a knife or blunt weapon involves an Officers side arm.
     
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  4. slym2none

    slym2none

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    I believe the Durham Co. Sheriff's dept. has their long guns in the trunk, and they may need "permission" to use them, but don't quote me on that, I am not 100% sure, and am most likely wrong.
     
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  5. SAR

    SAR CLM

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    Our long guns come out quite often, both shotguns and rifles. Typically, a civilian will see long guns on perimeter containment or say a bank alarm, but 99% of the time we deploy our long guns, it’s just us and the bad guys. If you see one on one of those occasions, you’re a bad guy... Meaning, just because you don’t see us deploy them doesn’t mean we aren’t.
     
  6. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    One of the other recent videos I watched was a homeless guy or pan handler. Seemed cool lit the gate, might have been a welfare check call. The knife came out quick, and he drew his side arm, That i get.
     
  7. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    Needing permission to use any length of force is just absurd imo. I learned that working corrections non the less. Sometimes you don’t have tome for that.
     
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  8. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    Getting late, I will try to address this further, later.

    Some of that comes down to having a long gun can be a pain to deal with. Especially, if you’re working alone. I can remove and holster a sidearm often and with little fanfare. With a long gun, slinging it to handcuff (especially, a subject proned on the ground) is more of a liability than an asset. If the long gun is not needed, the transition from initial scene security to investigation is no longer fluid. The choices are to keep the long gun slung or break off and return the long gun to the vehicle. Often, situations that you just got under control are still fragile and your immediate absence allows previously de-escalated emotions to re-escalate.

    I was much more likely to bring a long gun to assist the PD than I was to deploy it on a rural call. Yes, we had times where the long gun was the tool needed and it was deployed due to a perceived need, not the typical preference. On some of those types of calls, the PD sent someone to help, or you hoped the Trooper could figure out where you were.

    Manhunts and perimeters always called for a long gun, if time permitted. If I was going on foot more than a half mile, or so, from the vehicle, I usually took a long gun. Same for if I knew I would be in the woods or walking trails. Going after poachers with a sidearm is not very comforting. Neither is chasing meth cooks in their 400 acre back yard.
     
  9. pgg00

    pgg00

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    We deploy them fairly regularly. But we also train with them a lot. A lot of agencies only qual with them and some basic manipulation training. When I took over our firearms program I really concentrated on training. Everything we do with a handgun we do with rifles as well. If we are shooting from inside a car we do both. Outside the same. Malfunction drills the same. We also do force on force with both handgun and rifles as well.
     
  10. collim1

    collim1

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    I still carry my 12 gauge. Love the shotgun. I carry a M4 style rifle as well, but I tend to grab the shotgun. We have only been allowed rifles fo a few years now, and only about half the guys at the department are authorized rifles.

    Truth is the long guns don’t come out very often for me.

    99.9% of situations are resolved without deadly force. When you have a long gun out your less lethal options are very limited. Being able to quickly secure your pistol in your holster and go hands on or go to a less lethal option is a big advantage.

    It’s also not easy to pursue and restrain someone in a foot chase with a long gun.

    I teach my guys that four officers is ideal for a high risk stop. One or maybe two with a long gun (I prefer a shotgun for felony stops) and the others need pistols that can be resecured for cuffing, fighting, or chasing a fleeing or resisting suspect.

    As a young officer I responded to a hot call in the projects with my 870 pump in hand. Despite dispatch stating someone was armed with a gun we never found one. The call escalated quickly into a foot chase and then brawl with multiple suspects. and there I was with my shotgun in hand and not much use to my partner. If someone calls your bluff with a long gun out you really only have one option......

    I like to have someone armed with a rifle at a hot call to cover our approach, especially if there is a lot of open ground with little cover or no way to make a stealthy approach. But if four officers pull up at the same time and they all have rifles in their hands, I’m telling Atleast two of them to put them up before we approach the call.

    You also don’t often have good information when the call is dispatched. Bad calls tend to evolve as you start approaching. A lot of shooting, stabbing, and robbery calls initially get dispatched as “suspicious person” or “suspicious incident” complaints. And then as you’re approaching you start getting more info. “10-0 receiving multiple calls. Unknown further........upgrading to robbery suspect armed with a handgun.........1 person shot, not responsive.........” and so you don’t have the information needed to deploy a rifle when you had the chance.

    Don’t get me wrong, long guns have value. Choosing the right time to deploy them can be tricky.

    I have noticed a lot of younger guys these days don’t have much confidence in their pistols. They are quick to grab a long gun. They need to practice. Your pistol is what your most likely to have available when the time comes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
  11. Tomcat1977

    Tomcat1977 "Cynical Little me"

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    Edit: Tired of talking about the Job.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  12. JohnnyReb

    JohnnyReb Lifetime Member

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    I deploy mine whenever it’s reasonable to do so. Did it last night on a high risk stop. I’d rather fight with a 5.56 then a 9mm.
     
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  13. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26

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    I'm retired, but when I had a man with a weapon call, I got the shotgun out.
    I knew handguns are poor fight stoppers.
     
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  14. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

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    If it was likely that I’d be drawing down on someone, I’d sling the rifle. I wanted the most powerful, accurate weapon available.

    Our policy actually encouraged taking a rifle if we expected to be facing an armed subject. No downside that I saw - if it wound up not being needed, sling it tight.
     
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  15. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    I appreciate the input!
     
  16. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    I was wondering if a lot of departments don’t train with them, Glad you guys do. I imagine going hands on with a rifle slung isn’t the most ideal scenario.
     
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  17. PennsWoods

    PennsWoods

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    Like John said, I can only speak for me but if it sounds like I may need a gun I'm getting out the rifle (AR in my case).
     
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  18. CAcop

    CAcop

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    Pretty much any call with weapons or potential for weapons is high.

    Sometimes time is of the essence and you can only get your handgun out. Like spotting a robbery suspect under a bridge.
     
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  19. cheygriz

    cheygriz God Bless Trump

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    Easy answer

    Replace all handguns with Hk MP5/MP5K SMG

    mp5.jpeg mp5k.jpeg
     
  20. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

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    My old department only issues long guns to specialized units. Some of the newer guys got a familiarization course in the Academy but that’s it. Most cops in NYC only have a handgun and radio to call in those special units.
     
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