[ateamer]

A retired lietuenant who I know is asserting that LAPD and NYPD train firearms monthly, and that they have hit rates of 26 and 18% in actual shootings. He is using the hit rates despite monthly training to support his argument against allowing armed civilians.

Can anyone verify their training tempo? I have a hard time believing that in departments that big, that anyone besides special units go to the range that frequently. If I recall correctly, LAPD officers who carry 1911s or who maintain marksmanship bonus pay qualify monthly.

Help me out...I've had about enough of his anti-defense act.

 

[L-1]

Unless it changed since I retired, CHP, with 7,000 sworn, shoots monthly, but only qualifies quarterly. Perhaps LAPD has a similar program. Whenever I ran up to the LAPD Academy for something, the range was always in use at all hours.

 

[CAcop]

I think Sean has mentioned NYPD does 8 hours quarterly. Keep in mind the NYPD stats include all times a firearm is discharged on or off duty including unintentional discharges.

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[NMPOPS]

In my old department (135 sworn) we had monthly training/qualification. Each officer was required to attend one(1) session per quarter for a total of four(4) per year. All Handguns duty and off duty had to be qualified with quarterly, shot guns and rifles twice per year. So if someone looked at our training schedule without really knowing our system they might assume we all trained monthly. That would have been nice but it was unaffordable.

 

[seanmac45]

Actually, NYPD qualification for our officers is twice a year. There is a summer qual and a winter qual (indoors). MAYBE ESU or the sniper team qualifies more frequently, but other than that it is summer and winter.

Edit to add; each MOS is allotted 50 rounds per month for practice, however there are very very few who utilize it, and getting range time is problematic as well.

 

[ChiefWPD]

SeanMac is right on. Normal quals are twice yearly, specialized units (and the amount of training will vary with the unit and the equipment used) can be several times a year.

(for the record, I served as a sgt. and lt. at the NYPD Firearms & Tactics Unit -- a bazillion years ago...)

 

[walkinguf61]

The NYPD has regular firearms qualifications twice a year.

It’s about 150 rounds. Maybe a FATS sim. 50 rounds training. 50 rounds qualifying with paper target. 50 rounds to qualify with off duty weapon. Paper target training with very little actual movement rather than lean out from cover to shoot.

But it is meant to be more of a refresher training and requal

That is the minimum by the Firearms and Tactics section However the supplemental training such as active shooter training is done by the counter-terrorism bureau which is excellent training. Then some of us were given active shooter management training. Excellent training. Moving and shooting. Shooters hiding , using people as cover, running, etc

But it is not even close to once a month. But they do offer once a month optional requal training but few take it. It is pain to get to the department range. I shot on my own.

And yes, the hit ratio is historically about 15% to 20%.

Remember its a split second decision with a moving and possibly shooting “target” with distractions such as people screaming or running into your field of vision. Not knowing the “players” involved etc etc.

Even good training is great but doesn’t match it. It can come close. Cops in busy places often don’t shoot but face that shoot/don’t shoot often. And use other tools and techniques over the use or the threat of the gun.

But armed civilians can train too. We can easily create a program to allow civilians to be in schools. Not so much as shooting ability but to intergrate them into the active shooter plan to reduce friendly fire incidents and such. It could be like the armed pilot program but done right.

 

[Kingarthurhk]

Ever since I was employed, FLEO policy has been every 3 months, 4 times a year. That would always include a full day. In the USBP it was pistol, shotgun, M-4, clean them up, lunch, often times over the FATS simulator to shoot at humans on a computer. Loved that. My hit ratios improved with simulated humans. Or, at the various academies with Sig 9mm's loaded with plastic bullets with dried paint in them. Last 6 month Academy, I was nicknamed 'The Killer' mostly because the partner I was with hated paperwork and feared use of force paperwork. So, he didn't want to shoot anyone because you had to jot down on paper why you did what you did to be reviewed by actual Supervisors. Paperwork never bothered me, it was always part of the job. So, he drove, and I shot the BG actors who were shooting blanks out of their shotguns at their wives, gf's whatever. Old base housing, so the houses looked the same.

I remember we had shoot don't shoot scenario, and I heard two instructors fussing about me in the background. 'Don't give him this scenario-he'll kill everyone.'

Long story short, I always enjoyed shooting actual or virtual people. Paper, as my wife complains gets boring and static. It is more fun to put 5 in the chest from a guy on a screen charging you with a knife. Now, that is entertainment.

 

[steveksux]

Already heard it was more like 30% hits... That an old wives tale, or did it used to be true, and this guy's numbers are more recent timeframe?

Randy

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[ChiefWPD]

Already heard it was more like 30% hits... That an old wives tale, or did it used to be true, and this guy's numbers are more recent timeframe?

Randy

I don't know the current stats, but that seems high. Keep in mind, a "gunfight" tends to take place quickly, with no warning, with everyone moving around, bobbing and weaving.

It ain't like the movies...

 

[steveksux]

I don't know the current stats, but that seems high. Keep in mind, a "gunfight" tends to take place quickly, with no warning, with everyone moving around, bobbing and weaving.

It ain't like the movies...

Funny... I've always used the 30% number to make the exact same point to people...

Didn't realize I was overly optimistic..

Randy

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[kwo]

Maybe NY needs to get better triggers on their glocks.

 

[walkinguf61]

Actually, NYPD qualification for our officers is twice a year. There is a summer qual and a winter qual (indoors). MAYBE ESU or the sniper team qualifies more frequently, but other than that it is summer and winter.

Edit to add; each MOS is allotted 50 rounds per month for practice, however there are very very few who utilize it, and getting range time is problematic as well.

I wish the winter quals were indoors-lol

 

[Orive 8]

I believe that at one time, LAPD had monthly quals. I don't know if they still do or not.

The agency that I used to work for had quarterly quals with handguns and rifles, one of those was a low light qual. We also qualified with BUGS twice a year.

Now they only officially qualify 2x each year, the other two shoots are "practice quals" - worded such so that they are not mandatory for everyone to attend (i.e. admin and detective types don't have to show up for these if they don't want too)

 

[SC Tiger]

Funny... I've always used the 30% number to make the exact same point to people...

Didn't realize I was overly optimistic..

Randy

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I could believe that in actual shootouts.

Training I would expect to be higher.

 

[seanmac45]

I wish the winter quals were indoors-lol

They were when I was on. What happened? We used to use the 69 range and then Ave. X facility for the Winter shoots.

 

[ChiefWPD]

They were when I was on. What happened? We used to use the 69 range and then Ave. X facility for the Winter shoots.

Yeah. There were indoor ranges, each with one or two Firearms Instructors during the winter period, in each borough. Used to get fifty rounds a month to shoot if so desired (I used to go to multiple ranges each month and shoot more. Please don't tell on me.).

 

[BigBluefish]

I'm curious. What does it take to "qualify" on the LAPD / NYPD monthly or quarterly course. I presume it is shooting at silhouette targets of some sort, at what, 10, 15 & 25 yards? What score is a 'pass'?

Given that police have at least theoretically, a higher likelihood than the average civilian to be engaged in a gunfight, and would do so under circumstances where a non-sworn individual would not do so, I'm not so sure that the police deptartments hit rates in armed confrontation really support the contention that non-sworn civilians not carry concealed weapons.

However, given that if we do, we ought to be able to hit what we are shooting at (and assuming that we ought to be shooting at, well, what we are shooting at) maybe we ought, a few times a year, to take some practice similar to the police qualifying courses.

 

[Kingarthurhk]

I wish the winter quals were indoors-lol

Me too. And the humid summers. When I was in the USBP it made perfect sense to me. I was always out in the elements. When it switched to a more professional role, where most of your encounters were in doors, it made about zero sense to me.

 

[Mayhem like Me]

We train quarterly and in shootings we have a 73% hit ratio in shootings that did not contain directed fire. We had a shooting where directed fire was used to keep a guy with an AK from shooting while they preformed an officer rescue on the deputy that was shot.The suspect fired 75 rounds out of an AK with a drum through the trailer at a deputy trying to communicate with him on a PA.