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(KY) Coyotes don't deserve torture that bill will bring

Discussion in 'Hunting, Fishing & Camping' started by Razoreye, Mar 2, 2006.

  1. Razoreye

    Razoreye ♥♥Adorkable!♥♥

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    http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/legislature/13996123.htm
    Posted on Thu, Mar. 02, 2006

    Bill would let trappers sell coyotes
    LIVE ANIMALS WOULD FETCH MORE MONEY

    ASSOCIATED PRESS
    FRANKFORT - The House passed legislation yesterday that would allow trappers to sell live coyotes to hunters who release the animals into pens for their dogs to chase.
    Live coyotes could fetch up to $100 apiece, state wildlife officials said.
    House Bill 608, sponsored by state Rep. Royce Adams, D-Dry Ridge, was approved 85-15.
    Only trappers licensed by the state to deal with nuisance animals would be allowed to sell live coyotes under the legislation, which now goes to the Senate. Current state law forbids the sale of live coyotes.
    Jon Gassett, head of the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources, said last week that coyotes have proliferated across the state, looking to livestock and even family pets, including small dogs and cats, for quick meals.
    Adams said farmers came to him asking for help with the coyotes.
    "They are reproducing so fast," Adams said. "I'm told a female coyote can have up to three litters a year."
    Larry Carr, a cattle farmer in Grant County, said most trappers currently don't bother with coyotes, because their furs are worth only $10 to $15 each. Allowing the animals to be sold alive would provide an incentive for trappers.

    ================================================
    http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/13996186.htm
    Posted on Thu, Mar. 02, 2006

    Coyotes don't deserve torture that bill will bring
    By David S. Maehr

    Six decades ago Aldo Leopold, the father of modern wildlife management, ushered the United States into a more enlightened view of the relationship between people and nature.
    His vision made us the global leader in environmental protections not only for people but also for wild plants and animals. Such protections have grown stronger because people recognize that this promotes a better quality of life.
    In general, Kentuckians have embraced their natural heritage -- the return of elk, the peregrine falcon and the black bear are examples of our national leadership in wildlife management.
    Now, Kentucky can become a national embarrassment by turning back the clock to the time when irresponsible farming practices washed soil into the sea, pollutants were freely flushed into our drinking water and the only good predator was a dead predator.
    The House Agriculture and Small Business Committee should be admonished for promoting a bill that would turn coyotes into a commercial resource: snared, caged and released for the enjoyment of a few so-called sports with hounds.
    The callousness of this commercialization is not only contrary to the way wildlife is viewed in this country, but it is unethical, inhumane and otherwise completely unjustified.
    If it is true that a few Kentuckians and their legislators are concerned about the coyote's potential as a destroyer of native game, livestock or pets, this bill is based on fantasy and misinformation.
    Even if the coyote had significant impact on livestock, a proposed plan that allows trapped coyotes to become $100 toys for misguided Elmer Fudds is an insult to the sensibilities of modern, non-knuckle-dragging humans.
    As if the notion of expanding unethically caged wild deer and elk was not enough, our legislative leaders now see fit to demonize and degrade a part of Kentucky's native biodiversity. It is the kind of behavior that will further erode the already declining public support for ethical hunting and trapping.
    The coyote is a wild canid closely related to dogs and wolves. In the early 1970s, it was scarce in Kentucky, but today it is widespread throughout the eastern United States. The coyote has made a good living here because agriculture has replaced forests, and potential competitors, such as the cougar and gray wolf, were exterminated nearly two centuries ago.
    As wolf-like as the coyote appears, it behaves as much like a large fox as a small wolf. In Kentucky, the coyote weighs 25 to 40 pounds and lives in pairs or small family groups unlike larger packs that can form in the West. Although coyotes occasionally eat deer fawns, their diet is mostly small rodents, rabbits, insects, fruit and berries.
    Coyotes rarely kill small livestock, but all the field data of which we are aware (based on more than 100 years of combined professional experience with wildlife) suggest that most large animals are scavenged -- that is, coyotes take advantage of animals that have died some other way.
    Feral and free-ranging dogs are recognized as a bigger problem to deer and livestock than the secretive and relatively small coyote. Besides, more than 95 percent of all livestock losses can be prevented with proper animal husbandry, and there is no evidence that coyotes attack pets in Kentucky.
    Even if one hates coyotes, House Bill 608 cedes public ownership and management of wildlife to a select few. This is contrary to the common-law history of wildlife in North America and the right of citizens to conserve wildlife resources.
    We reject this legislative powerplay that denies the fact that we, the people of Kentucky, own the wildlife in our state.
    Finally, none of us are anti-hunters or animal-rights activists. We acknowledge the proper time and place for using lethal methods to manage wildlife populations. If a coyote kills livestock, killing it can be justified.
    However, we cannot condone legislatively mandated torture of animals. It does not benefit wildlife or the people of Kentucky who appreciate all elements of the state's native biodiversity.
    As for state Rep. Mike Denham's insomnia, we suggest that he has confused the coyote's melodious singing with the howling of his neighbor's miserable redbone hounds that stay tied to trees all night except when chasing tortured coyotes -- transported from familiar territories to frightening Gulags of human abuse.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    David S. Maehr is an associate professor in the University of Kentucky department of forestry. This commentary was also signed by his colleagues Thomas G. Barnes, Michael J. Lacki and John J. Cox.



    Your thoughts?
     
  2. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

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    I don't agree with the legislation and I think Mr. Adams has a poor view on what a coyote is, does and who in the hell wants to pull one out of a trap alive I don't know.

    I use dogs on coyotes. Both tolling and ADC. Which is what folks want live coyotes for. Bringing a coon in a trap for green dogs is a common practice. Mostly for hounds, which I bet is what these KY boys are using. For a coyote dog I'd rather have them learning in the field. They won't learn what they need in a pen.

    If they dropped the licenses and let folks run draglines, they could get the trapping and dog work all at the same time. But there isn't any money in that.
     

  3. Razoreye

    Razoreye ♥♥Adorkable!♥♥

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    I've never heard of this so this is what I figured when reading the article:

    Yotes were used like fox-hunting in Britain.
    -BUT it mentioned something about a pen
    -Sounds like the Yotes are trapped with the dogs and not only is that unfair and cruel sounding, I can't see how that could possibly help train the dogs

    At the same time it sounded like the professors didn't know what they're talking about when they said this "If it is true that a few Kentuckians and their legislators are concerned about the coyote's potential as a destroyer of native game, livestock or pets, this bill is based on fantasy and misinformation."

    Maybe he's right and I don't know. But I was always under the impression when there are too many (and there are) they run out of food to scavenge and will become much bolder, so much so as to raid our animals. There has to be a direct correlation between the Yote population and wildlife and game and livestock. Otherwise farmers and hunters wouldn't be complaining, right?
     
  4. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

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    Well those same farmers and hunters told Mr. Adams that coyotes have 3 litters a year. So I wouldn't put all that much faith in what they say about the subject.

    Some guys out here in the West run coyotes. It would never work in KY. If that's what the guys who are buying the coyotes plan on doing, expect it to be a short lived venture.

    Dogs are used on coyotes three other ways. Tolling, running a trapline and denning.

    Tolling is the hunting part of coyotes. The dog is there to get the coyotes attention/pull the attention off of you, bring in coyotes that check up and follow up in case one flubs a shot.

    On a trapline, here at least, drag lines are usually best. They allow the coyote, or whatever else you caught since traps aren't selective, to find some shade under a mesquite and not cook to death in the sun. The trouble is that a dragline has little to catch on out here. Sometimes it will snag up on a clump of tumbleweed, others it will bounce along the hardpan for a mile or more. The dogs are used to find the coyote in the trap. Well, any hunting dog worth a lick won't just sit and wait for you to catch up. Unless you're on horseback you're coming to the show after the first act. A young dog getting mixed up with a coyote that has it's back protected can get ugly. In that case, young dogs are usually put out on coyotes when you're there and the older dogs are held up for backup. Once a dog has the idea, usually after having a coyote latch onto it a time or two, then it's safe to let them track freely.

    Denning is stricly ADC. There isn't any sport in it. It's all about moving in, killing the adults and sending the dog down the hole to kill the pups. It gets wild and wooly and is no place for squeamish dogs.

    I see no advantage to dropping a coyote in a pen to train a dog. I think it would actually work against you. A dog needs to learn to work a coyote, not just kill one. Though sometimes a dog like that can be useful, they aren't 'all around' coyote dogs.

    I think this guy let his emotion get the better of him in his piece, but this statement seems right on to me. Most folks back east are just now seeing coyotes in any kind of real population. I grew up in Ohio and damned if I EVER saw one. And I was in the fields plenty. No road kill... nothing. The thing is that they aren't looking west and the history of the coyote out here. You're not going to eliminate the coyote. It's been tried. And with means that are now illegal (read: poison) and they are still here in great numbers. All the folks who shoot a couple coyotes from deer stands to 'protect their wildlife' just don't get it. Killing 20 or 30 coyotes is like emptying Lake Erie by the spoonful. Sooner or later it rains and you're screwed.

    To actually make an effect you need to kill 70-80% of the coyotes in an area EVERY YEAR. Coyotes have a ton of built in survival mechanisms. For instance we got hit by parvo down here pretty bad. I'll bet dollars to dognuts that I see more 5 and 6 pup litters than 2 or 3 this year. ADC needs and ADC mind. Casual doesn't cut it.

    Folks worry about deer. I'm not exactly sure why. There are more deer east of the Rockies than before this country was settled. And less habitat. If you can't kill a deer back east, put down the beer can and get out of your truck.

    Livestock... sure a coyote will go after livestock. Coyotes killing cattle is so rare it's not funny. Feral dogs kill more cattle. You can tell if you look at the tracks. Even a 6 month old calf will kick the crap out of a couple coyotes. This weekend a buddy and I are heading to a ranch to do some thinning. It's calving time and the coyotes that are denned there are picking up the afterbirths and eyeing those fresh calves pretty hard. Those they may take, if they can get past momma.

    Chickens, goats, sheep, house cats, chihuahuas, etc. Well what in the world doesn't eat those things? I have chihuahuas. They are on the bottom of the food chain and its up to me to be responsible for them. I also have cats, chickens and a one eyed bastard of a goat. Sure the coyote population around my place is... well... thin. ;) But it will come right back up next year. All of these things are prey animals. Coyotes, bobcat, fox, lion, dogs, raptors, snakes... mother nature designed these animals to be killed and eaten by something. If folks want to keep them alive they should protect them rather than get pissed at the things that eat them. My chickens might get snatched. That's fine with me. I have a feeling that damn goat will outlive me unless I take a hammer to him. :)

    As you may be able to tell from my avatar, I love coyotes. Of all the animals I hunt, they are by far my favorite animal. I've learned more about life and hunting from them as from anything else. I also admire and respect them more than most anything on the planet. They are survivors. No matter where they are, they're not only going to survive, but thrive. We should all do so well.
     
  5. Razoreye

    Razoreye ♥♥Adorkable!♥♥

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    Maybe, maybe.

    I realize termination has been tried and failed horribly. I don't know about not seeing yotes out here, back on my dad's farm I've seen plenty slunking across the fields. I've found a half eaten calf that a farmer was missing, it looked like it was born right there and some yotes got it. How the momma let that happen or how it escaped or what not, we're not sure. I'm thinking the cow was overpowered or something but it was fine IIRC. Of course the calf didn't make it (what was left of it. ;g)

    They've been so bold to come up to our house before and I suspect one of our cats was lost to them. We have two rottweilers and we haven't seen a coyote within 100 yards of the house since. (Well, one time one that we know of came close, could have been more.)

    I don't know how much more of a problem it is for farmers without the exaggeration. Still, I oppose the bill as well.

    I admire coyotes but that won't stop me from killing one if I see it. They're like cockroaches (which I admire as well, little buggers.)


    Do you mind writing something up and sending it in to the editor?
    www.kentucky.com is the site for the Herald (Liberal) Leader.
     
  6. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

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    I sent an email off to a fella I know from another board who hunts coyotes in KY. I want to see what his take on it is.
     
  7. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

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    My buddy says most folks are planning on using them like fox for 'games'. Never really understood that one either.
     
  8. 6forsure

    6forsure

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    They use Greyhounds to kill coyotes in both New Mexico and Texas, probably other states too. The dogs are let out of a truck or off a 4 wheeler when a coyote is spotted and they chase and catch and kill the coyote. Pretty neat sport chasing coyotes and dogs across the open prairie in a truck (private land). This won't be a dog in a small enclosure with a coyote (which I understand is a legitimate training method using hogs for some types of hog dogs like Argentine Dogos). But folks letting them go in a large area with hounds of various types in pursuit.

    As sportsmen, we ought to support all types of regularly, commonly practiced hunting, fishing, and trapping that don't endanger the public* or affects the animal population negatively.

    BTW, on the poison issue, I'm pretty sure that cyanide guns are still used by State (NM) and Federal trappers.

    Public doesn't include the idiots that let their dog or cat run free and then Fluffy or Fido gets trapped, etc.
     
  9. Razoreye

    Razoreye ♥♥Adorkable!♥♥

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    That's what I was thinking. It sounds like they can enclose them in pens... like dog fighting. ;g

    I don't know but I can't possibly see myself supporting this bill.
     
  10. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

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    I know some fellas that run dogs like 6forsure described. Much different than this stuff. This more like a few acre section of game proof fence. Folks pay money to the owner to let their dogs run the 'target'. In this case the fox or coyote has no chance of escape. Eventually the dogs will get it.

    Out on the flats, the coyote can make a go. Now it's a slim chance to make it if there's good dogs, but not any less than a coyote that comes into my call.
     
  11. Jimlw54

    Jimlw54

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    I think this sounds worse than it really is, especially to someone who doesn't hunt. Here in Arkansas a Fox pen consists of several acres (maybe as much as 100) of natural habitat that have been fenced in. The Fox is chased for sport, and is not usually killed. It's just a bunch of guys who love thier dogs and like to hear them run.
    As for trapping Cyotes that would probably be best done with a "Live Trap", usually a wooden box with some bait inside. I am not passing judgement on the bill. I just don't think it is as bad as it sounds.
     
  12. 6forsure

    6forsure

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    In AZ (CA too I think), unless on private land, cage traps are the only option I believe. I'm pretty sure that they do use leg hold traps quite frequently to catch live market coyotes. They aren't nearly as damaging as many would believe. Looking at the most successful trapping methods for coyotes in general, leg holds and snares are probably more successful than cage traps.
     
  13. Razoreye

    Razoreye ♥♥Adorkable!♥♥

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    Well Kentucky isn't known for expansive flat areas, except around the reclaimed mines. I have no update because I haven't found anything new on the status of this bill yet.
     
  14. 6forsure

    6forsure

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    This is probably going to be like Jimlw54 describes a foxpen. Nothing wrong with it all, except to anti-hunters/trappers/fisherman and pro-animal rights people.
     
  15. friar

    friar

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    I have a friend that loses 40 to 80 lambs a year to coyotes and feral dogs. When you start adding up that tally it gets to be an expensive menu.
     
  16. ErikS

    ErikS

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    Coyotes are the #1 killer of livestock. In Montanna coyotes kill around 4700
    sheep a year.
     
  17. Razoreye

    Razoreye ♥♥Adorkable!♥♥

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    I'm going to do my part as soon as I get my AR fully assembled. Yotes year round here. Might as well try and take a few since it is legal!

    I think this bill died, BTW. It's been too long and I forgot to update this so... yeah.