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Knife Takeaway Training

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by Stepaway, Mar 30, 2010.

  1. Stepaway

    Stepaway Citified

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    I see a lot of material - books, DVDs, classes - on taking a knife away from an assailant. For those of you who have been attacked - does that stuff actually work or will it just get me hurt. I've always assumed that the only way to take away a knife is with a gun. Tell me!
     
  2. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    You would need some serious edged weapons training to do this.

    It's far easier to simply DISARM someone with a knife than it is to "take it away". Disarming drills can be taught, or learned over a matter of a few days of intensive training.

    'Drew
     

  3. MTPD

    MTPD

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    An assailant armed with a knife should be shot first, then disarmed.

    One of the cops I worked with went hand to hand with a felon armed with a very small pocket knife. The cop's chest looked like a well used cutting board afterwards........and was scarred forever! And he was a BIG cop, a lot bigger than the BG.

    Taking knives away H2H is for the movies, not the street.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  4. Stepaway

    Stepaway Citified

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    Since I have no experience or training in unarmed combat it sounds like thats a project that will have to wait behind my handgun training. However, I have picked up a hardwood cane.

    Here's a followup question - assuming equal size and skill - who wins that battle, a man with a cane or a man with a knife?
     
  5. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Real life does not work like that.

    Who attacked 1st? What is the mindset of either? Who has more to lose? Who is more dedicated on winning?

    Have you ever seen ANY (boxing, kickboxing, wrestling) where someone with lesser skill or size kicked the other's ***? Sometimes timing, circumstances and luck also come into play.



    The question you ask is one almost EVERYONE with little or no experience asks - they are trying to find that magic talisman or shortcut. Real life does not work like this, where there are clear cut advantages we can look at in a sterile environment.

    Would you prefer to have a knife, or a cane if you and your adversary are completely submerged in water? :)

    Too many variables.

    'Drew
     
  6. Stepaway

    Stepaway Citified

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    Thank you for your comments, I understand what you're saying. I guess what I'm really asking is this - If someone comes after me with a knife should I even attempt to disarm them or just draw my gun? Of course, I don't want to shoot anyone but I also don't want to be a dead guy with a glock in my holster.
     
  7. Currahee

    Currahee NRA Member

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    Stepaway - if you feel someone is putting your life in danger and that you can protect yourself by use of your firearm, then do so. It doesn't matter if your attacker is using a knife, bat or gun. You have no legal or moral obligation to disarm an attacker.

    Based on your questions I highly recommend that you attend a good training class before you concealed carry. Where do you live? We can recommend a good school.
     
  8. Stepaway

    Stepaway Citified

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    I'm in Houston, thx for the help.
     
  9. Currahee

    Currahee NRA Member

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    Here is a list of Texas training I've found. I think 360 Tactical is near you. I would post a new question in "Tactics and Training" to see if anyone has any personal experience with any of these schools.

    http://www.krtraining.com/
    http://www.learn2shoot.net/
    http://www.360tacticaltraining.com/Home.html
    http://www.northtexastactical.com/
    http://bluffdalefirearmsacademy.com/default.aspx
    http://www.tdsa.net/
    http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/
    http://www.tigervalley.com/
    http://www.glcshootingacademy.com/
     
  10. CRUEL HAND LUKE

    CRUEL HAND LUKE

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    It largely depends on how far away they are when you figure out the attack is imminent.

    Problem is that most knife attackers in REAL life will not show the knife until they are VERY close to you. They will typically try to close the distance and get a hold of you as they deploy the knife. No one is going to do an impersonation of the "Cairo Swordsman" from Raiders of the Lost Ark before they attack you. Many victims of knife attacks think they are getting punched at first.....

    If they are stupid enough to show you the knife at distance then SHOOT them. Problem is that is rare for them to show it early....


    Try this exercise. Have a friend stand 2 arms reach away. He will be armed with a training knife, a dull butter knife or even an ink pen with a cap on it. You are armed with a blue gun or an empty airsoft gun with no bbs in it carried concealed just like you do for real on the street.

    He will start the attack by lunging at you and trying to stab you as many times as he can. You will counter by drawing and "firing".

    How many times did you get stabbed? Were you able to get your gun out? Did he foul your draw? Did he disarm YOU? Did you get stabbed multiple times in vital places?

    Generally speaking if the attack starts within 2 yards you will have a tough time trying to just draw and shoot. You will need some type of empty hand skills to mitigate the attack and create either control over your opponent or create distance to draw your weapon.

    Some sources for anti knife material is the AMOK knife system (edgedweaponsolutions.com). Their "Accessing While Under Attack" class spend the whole class defending empty hand against knife attacks starting out empty handed until you can make space to access your weapon. EVERYONE should experience this.

    Other good sources are the Red Zone knife defense program and the STAB program. A good DVD set is Lee Morrison's "On the Sharp Edge".

    There is a big wide world of information out there that never gets taught in typical "gun schools" or written about in gun magazines. The truth is out there........:supergrin:
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  11. Stepaway

    Stepaway Citified

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    Thanks a lot guys, thats why Glock Talk is impressive - so many guys with so much experience willing to help. Who knows you prob just saved my ***.
     
  12. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Well then thank Curahee and Luke, because while I've seen a lot of stuff 2nd hand, I can't say I have any experience with anything whatsoever. ;)

    'Drew
     
  13. Currahee

    Currahee NRA Member

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    ***Disclaimer***
    I don't have any experience with being attacked with a knife outside of a training environment. RPGs yes, knives no. :tongueout:

    Stepaway - I take Krav Maga classes and there is a fair amount of time spent on defense against knives. It is not integrated with carrying with a handgun but still very useful. I know there is a school in Houston, you might want to check that out. I've really enjoyed the classes as well as learned a lot.
     
  14. Esox357

    Esox357

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    There has been more than one incident where a guy with the knife kills the guy with a gun! You don't take away a knife and even disarming can be tricky depending on how skilled the individual is? Distance and awareness are you friends. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone with a knife! Esox357.
     
  15. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    To the OPs credit, I think he meant "knife takeaways" where all you have is ...nothing, and you disarm a knife wielder. What do you do if you have no gun? Create distance? Use diversion? What if you get cornered? What do you do then?

    'Drew
     
  16. ElectricZombie

    ElectricZombie

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    I've disarmed one person with a knife, and honestly, I probably got lucky as this was many years ago and I didn't have any training.

    I've since practiced a bit, and it's hard to do even against a rubber knife.
     
  17. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith

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    Actually, that is plan A. But that plan can go to heck if the knife welder does not wait for you to draw a gun.

    Besides my TKD, I also train in Krav Maga. About 30 years in TKD and one year so far in KM.

    KM does have some good realistic knife disarming IF the attacker is using a committed attack. If the knife welder is using an uncommitted attack, well watch out cause it's very hard to predict and stop such attacks.

    What is more a lot of knife attacks are stabbings. A stabbing is different cause they tend to hide the weapon until they are close… to close, and stab you without warning. There is no real defense against that just as there is no real defense from being backshot.

    But for an assailant that telegraphs his intentions, there are so good knife defense methods. If you can't take a KM class, get the book "How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault" byt Imi Sde-Or Lichtenfeld and Eyal Yanilov. That and get a buddy to practice with.

    Deaf
     
  18. rvrctyrngr

    rvrctyrngr Senior Moment

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    Very true, 'Drew. Very true.

    Effective disarms can be taught in a relatively short period of time. I know a few instructors who do it, and do it very well.

    However, developing the SA and mindset to survive long enough to deploy those skills is another matter, entirely.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2010
  19. Cody Jarrett

    Cody Jarrett

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    NYCDREW is correct. The objective is to disarm and neutralize the threat, not take away the knife. Of course retreat would be the best thing to do if you can do so safely but if forced to fight conisdeer looking into various knife defense classes. I espeically liked a class I took at Modern Warrior on using straps and belts as improvised weapons. Here's some clips from the class --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNP...50AD017E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=41. Some nice knife defense work at the end of the clip.

    Even with proper training, this is still a very hard thing to do without getting hurt.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2010
  20. Jay S.

    Jay S.

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    I got robbed at knife point by a few guys while in the Navy in the Philippines. There were about eight guys there and a few of them wanted my money. I pulled a handful of pesos from my pocket and threw them as hard as I possibly could at the guys face who was closest to me (the one with the knife). I then ran fast enough to make Usain Bolt jealous. I never once even considered trying to disarm him and made creating distance my #1 priority. There may be a situation where that is your only option but it would be a last resort for me. I am not any kind of instructor or claim to be an expert at anything - this has just been my experience and is my .02 cents worth.:wavey: