JCN Carry Gun test part 3: lasers?

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by -JCN-, Oct 22, 2020.

  1. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    Lasers? It had an idea to test them but doesn’t seem to be much interest on this thread.

    In my mind, the potential use of a laser is being able to use it when you can’t see your sights because of up close fighting or awkward positioning.

    I went to the range with this:
    Green laser, red dot.
    3252FED8-BE00-4F17-9675-8B3F160ACDCF.jpeg

    But true to form, the laser didn’t have enough juice to work. I think the battery is old.

    So I tested baseline parameters:
    What would a 1.0 second draw and follow up shot on a man-sized target at 7 yards look like... without the dot on and without functional back up irons?

    Then for comparison, what would it be with the dot turned on?

    I may or may not test the laser later depending on if people care. But I thought it might be interesting to post the video of rapid draw without the dot versus with it. The drawstroke is pretty much identical except there’s a little more refinement with the dot.

    No dot draw was right under 1.0s.
    Dot draws were in the 0.90s range.



    Hit a “like” if you found the post interesting. Would also welcome discussion and comments.

    I found that I was faster and a little more accurate with the dot than on index, maybe because I was trying to use the window as a frame to confirm position rather than flat out driving to where the dot was on target.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  2. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

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    That’s really awesome that you have it all in one gun! That illuminates that variable totally! Thank you so much!

    my primary concerns again were:

    1) instinctive point shooting at close range where you can’t pick up your sights or optic for that matter.

    2) does it actually help you to get a shot somewhere on target quicker if you can turn your laser on and zero it in as you’re bringing the gun up as opposed to having to bring the gun up and look through your window and then see your target. Since you are practiced with optics, that should take that element out of the equation. I’ve heard some people can’t get their dot in their optic very quickly and Unless they used to using it. I know the one time I used someone else’s optic I had that problem somewhat. It’s like you have to try to use the iron sites first and then the dock will be in the window for you. If you raise the gun up and then look for the Dot if you’re not close to being on target, you can’t find that in the window.

    3) maybe ... it might also be interesting to see if there is any difference in follow-up shots. I’m going to guess that there won’t be, or there may be an advantage to the optics. But if you’re up for that, that be awesome!

    4) maybe also... I have actually found out that for me even beyond 15 yards up to 25 yards I can use my laser. And I can see it better than my iron sights at that distance. I am actually quite a bit faster with the laser if the lighting permits at 25 yards. Actually, when I did 25 yard group testing, I had to use my laser. I could not see my iron sights accurately at that distance, but my laser dot fit perfectly in the target bull’s-eye for my 25 yard group testing. It also allowed me to see if I jerked the trigger when I pulled it as I could see the dot move off the bull’s-eye.

    thanks again! As far as a hobby goes I agree with you, stuff like this is fun!
     
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  3. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    I guess I would view it like this. Whatever you have on your gun, is what you have on your gun if something bad happens.

    I would subject iron sights, lasers, and dots to the same situation, even if they aren't ideal. Lasers may suffer too close (point/shoot may win in terms of speed) and optics may help at a distance. On a dim, late evening, dots and iron sights may be hard to pick up while peering through things to find a target, and a laser may aid low light target identification. I don't know, but I'd throw it all at the wall (after all, it isn't my time, labor, and ammunition costs!).

    I'd love to see how an LCPII (with a crummier trigger, bad sights, but with a laser) fares against "real" guns (not dissing the LCP, I have a P3AT, so that is lower on the pecking order!).

    From an experimental design aspect, I'd randomly assign the gun order, and run a series of shots, then change the gun order and run the series of shots a second time to help minimize the impact of one bad shot, or issues of transition from one type of gun/sight to another.

    But regardless of how you ultimately set it up, it will be entertaining to read!
     
  4. jr24

    jr24

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    Interesting, I look forward to your tests.

    I think the problem with testing pointshooting, especially timed and first shot is your index is so good and you are practiced enough that you likely will default to what you know and it won't matter, unless you slow yourself down and look for the dot.

    Personally I'd much prefer the dot, again because my colorblindness makes finding even a bright green dot on clothing, especially the "wrong" color of clothing problematic. The only advantage would be if I somehow couldn't use my sights (or even proper grip) at a range outside of 5-7 yards (where I have practiced and can hit a torso from retention or just index fine), but then we get into "JR24's colorblind eyes can't find the dot that far away anyway" territory.

    Either way, look forward to your tests.
     
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  5. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    A friend of mine had to bluff his way through a color blindness test to become a tank commander. He guessed with someone apparently casting blind eye to the hints, and made it through. But he suffers like you. More than once I have heard him lament (with humor, not angst) that the two colors lasers for guns are offered in are the two that are the most often problematic for colorblind people (red and green). He wants a nice, blue laser. He even jokingly says a burning blue laser could be fun!

    But for the colorblind, if the colors in the background are similar (all green or all red) or indistinguishable (both red and green, but red/green colorblind), picking up brighter dot against a background of indistinguishable color certainly adds to the challenges for some colors and situations! The pulsed lasers on some older WML/Lasers were helpful for him (human eyes/brains are programmed to note movement).
     
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  6. jr24

    jr24

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    Back when I was a young guy, they had a laser tag place that had 3 teams, red, yellow and green. To me it was red, green and green, so I always had to request the red team else I'd blast my teammates with great consistency.

    Wasn't until I dropped off a nephew years later I saw that they added blue as the third color, man I would have loved that.

    The absolute biggest issue I have is hunting once it hits dusk (or dawn), I have excellent night vision, but once you hit that dusk/dawn grey everything just turns to a blur. Hunting whitetail, it means I miss probably an hour of hunting each day, some of the best time for them to be moving. Unless the deer is nice enough to stand in a nice white field or something.
     
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  7. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    Perhaps an albino deer in a dark field would work, as well! Sounds like a GREAT excuse to get a nice night vision scope or optics!

    Yeah. It certainly has a profound impact on some, like you. Simple things like uniform display of color sequence on stop lights (top red, middle yellow, bottom green) may seem like a small thing, but the chaos that could ensue if it weren't so would be stunning!
     
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  8. Colt38SuperDude

    Colt38SuperDude

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    To me, laser application is limited to home defense only.

    My CCW guns are minimalists - I favor light weight, small package and carry comfort over all other factors. YMMV.

    However, at home I like to have a laser/light combo on my pistol. Both me and the old lady wear prescription lenses. At night the glasses and the contact lenses come out, so if we have to grab the guns and go, chances are we won't be able to put on glasses or contact lenses. We aren't so blind that we can't identify people, but definitely blind enough to not able to use red dot or iron sights. That's where the laser comes in handy as an aiming device.
     
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  9. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

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    A lot of crime happens in the dark.
    Do you have a place we could shoot in the dark?
    I guess I was wondering what it would be like drawing from the holster, and getting shots on target in the dark with the laser versus the Dot site.
    And I must admit my bias...
    Because of my carry system I don’t think I could use a dot site. But maybe I need to rethink my current strategy.
     
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  10. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    My $0.02 are as follows on that:
    1. If it is low light, the auto-adjust intensity of the dot matches it and is perfect.
    2. If it is no light, I’m not shooting anything or I should be carrying a weapon mounted light. With which I can use my red dot. A laser would not be better in that regard, because if it was too dark to see your target you couldn’t point your gun and laser at it without being in violation of law.

    It is the reason why I insist on a very good auto-adjust sensor and why I like the RMSc over the Romeo Zero and the Holosun 407k/507k.

    This is very low light but camera exposure up. You can see the red dot to the left of the doorknob.
    F83B18AF-6624-48C3-8AD6-5E5533B2C33C.jpeg

    This is how dark it really looked to my eye. You can barely make out the doorknob. It’s too dark to positively ID your target but the gun and optic are still usable.

    ADF9D158-A5A3-44D2-A7FE-ED1DE6678A17.jpeg



    I am so committed now that I modified my primary holster with a BIC lighter.

    You can see that it really doesn’t change anything profile / bulk wise.

    8D6C146B-A2C4-4990-A054-BBBA39299B31.jpeg DD53228D-8843-45F9-AF64-AFB0F2F1504A.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  11. JPARANEE

    JPARANEE

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    Op great tests a d thank you for the time .... best reading on here

    For me lasers have their place and I do have one combined with a dedicated light on a house gun but not on my carry piece

    I agree with th OP’s comments and I am totally committed to the red dot

    for the comments about not finding the dot I think you would find you would find the dot and the auto brightness on some work extremely well

    I do a lot of practice drawing and using handheld lights and it’s amazing how a good set of night sights that properly cowitness with a dot light up your life and guide you in even without glasses on

    as for lazers they have their place but in no way take the place of a red dot for me
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  12. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

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    Obviously good points. I would never shoot when I don’t know what I’m shooting at... That would be stupid.
    In your second picture you can’t even see the door.

    I didn’t know they had adjustable dots that auto adjust to the light. That’s a cool idea.

    if I understand this correctly, you were basically shooting looking through the window without the dot sight on. Is that correct? So you were still looking through the window holding the pistol up in front of you as normal?
    If that’s the case, you’re a great point shooter for sure!

    and thank you again for the test!
     
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  13. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    The Trijicon RMR has an auto adjust that is quite accurate and good.

    The Holosun 507c has auto adjust that is “okay” but not great.

    For the micro optics: Shield RMSc, Sig Romeo Zero and Holosun 407k/507k.

    The only one that auto adjusts is the RMSc. It’s very good of an auto adjust.

    Thanks! Yes that’s correct. In the video, the first 5 pairs of shots were with the dot turned off and no co-witnessing irons.

    The view looked like this:
    5FF19D55-4C5A-4B6D-A84A-2F80D0AEB728.jpeg

    I just used index and a rough window frame refinement.

    Groups were similar to the second 5 pairs in the video that were done with the dot on.

    On all shots, I pulled the trigger when I was confident I was in the A/C zone. Instead of slowing me down to find a dot, it actually sped me up because I could confirm the shot earlier and more easily.

    You can see how that’s different than inexperienced dot shooters that claim they’re slower with a dot than irons under 7 yards.

    There’s a difference between time being the variable and accuracy being the variable!

    Also, index practice doesn’t cost a penny. I don’t know why people don’t dry fire more!

    For reference here is my new carry setup. You can see the slim dot doesn’t even stick out past the belt.

    5C55F3DC-38CA-4C1F-99C9-42E886DF4B57.jpeg
     
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  14. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

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    Did you try shooting off the hip with the laser versus without? If I’m understanding correctly, you didn’t try that. But that might’ve been what you were talking about when you said your light was to dim to see.

    that is really The only test where I thought there would be a huge advantage.
     
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