[rcd567]

Most here probably know or at least have heard about the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Which lead to the testing and subsequent change of calibers to the 10mm.

Once upon a time I had a binder of all the information of the shootout and following FBI tests. Unfortunately all that material didn't survive a long ago divorace.

Anyone have the original testing results? Also what round was the winning round of the tests, Norma? I've read the FBI adopted a watered down version of the winning round. What were the ballistics?

Thanks.

Edit to add that I met agent Mireles's wife about 10 years later at a homicide. She was a crime scene tech for the FBI and they had been transfered to the Omaha unit.

 

[rcd567]

<crickets chirping>:whistling:

A long, long, time ago in a galaxy far, far, away.........

I'm guessing the original question and the above statement must be from before most of your time?

 

[MightyTygart]

I was born in 1987......................but I have heard of this shootout in Miami.

 

[_The_Shadow]

I have the data on another Hard Drive...What the FBI settled on was the 180gr JHP at 980 fps...

 

[rcd567]

I have the data on another Hard Drive...What the FBI settled on was the 180gr JHP at 980 fps...

Yes eventually, but that wasn't the round that won the tests. My attic is a bit dusty and full of cobwebs, but I think I recall 170 @ 1300? or there abouts as the load. But don't remember for sure. I remember that it was too hot for the average FBI Agent to shoot so they watered it down to what is now the 40 S&W. Shoot, I figured since this was what started the 10mm, it was an easy question.:dunno:

 

[21Carrier]

I'm pretty sure Norma had originally offered two loads. One was a 200gr bullet at 1200fps (I forget if it was JHP or FMJ, but I think FMJ), and the other was a 170gr JHP at 1300fps. I'm not sure which was used in the testing, but I would guess it was the JHP.

 

[OregonG20]

Yes eventually, but that wasn't the round that won the tests. My attic is a bit dusty and full of cobwebs, but I think I recall 170 @ 1300? or there abouts as the load. But don't remember for sure. I remember that it was too hot for the average FBI Agent to shoot so they watered it down to what is now the 40 S&W. Shoot, I figured since this was what started the 10mm, it was an easy question.:dunno:

Unfortunate a lot of of the agents were carrying .357 magnum's, but only shooting .38 special ammo. Probably wouldn't have made a difference, but you never know.

I wonder if the FBI, or any government agency, will ever re-test now that the G20 is out there. The recoil is so much easier to handle out of the Glock.

 

[Jitterbug]

We must be the "old guys" RC.

I do remember the shooting and all the Gun Magazine articles, it was a terrible and sad day for the FBI.

I've also read that S&W and somebody...Winchester I think, got together and said hey we can shorten the cartridge and stuff it into a 9mm sized frame and come up with adequate terminal ballistics that meet the new FBI protocol with the 180 grain @ 980 fps, yet provide high capacity round count at the same time. I've also read that initially agents could keep their 10** series S&W if they wanted too, but this is just stuff I've read over the years and I don't know if it's factual.

I think the first S&W forty was a S&W 4006???

I just found an "old note" from 1992 in my reloading room yesterday, I was trying to get a 135 grain Nosler going 1300 fps from a .40 with AA5...I can't remember the dose at the moment.

I originally went with and liked the S&W 1006, but I did play around with a Sig 229 in .40 for a couple of years, it was an ok gun, but I really didn't have much use for either the pistol or caliber, it didn't suit my needs as a light woods gun, because of course anything it could do the 10mm could do much better, capacity excepted. I think the 1006 was a 9+1 which I felt was a more then adequate upgrade from my .357 six shooters, not to mention quick mag change.

If the 10mm had never come around and the only 40 was the Smith and Wesson 40, I'd have probably stuck with a .357, .41 and .44 and wheel guns.

I just got a call from my gunsmith, I had an old Dan Wesson .357 Mag, sitting in the gun cabinet for the past 20 or so years, the cylinder hand had quit working back in the late 80's and I never bothered to get it fixed until recently. I still have quite a bit of .357 components and stuff so I think I might keep it and play around with it for awhile.

To get further off track here, I just loaded up some 180 grain Gold Dots and ran it over 9.5, 10 and 10.5 grains of AA7, the 10.5 grain is giving me 1110 fps and is the accuracy sweet spot in my 4.25" 10mm 1911, as well as a very mild sweet shooting load. It's a tack driver, I'm going to run another batch of 50-100 to make certain it feeds well and probably call it good to go (as a city load) as it's within the design parameters of the 180 Gold Dot.

 

[agtman]

A long, long, time ago in a galaxy far, far, away.........
I'm guessing the original question and the above statement must be from before most of your time?

Heck, for some of us oldsters who got started
with this cartridge back in the day ... :shocked:

... it's still 1987.

Sorry, Bubba, but this dude doesn't do "a 180gn JHP @ 980fps."
That's not the 10mm AUTO.
That's a testosterone deficiency. :rofl:

 

[ModGlock17]

<CRICKETS chirping>:whistling:

A long, long, time ago in a galaxy far, far, away.........

I'm guessing the original question and the above statement must be from before most of your time?

There's a movie about it a long time ago. I wonder if it tells the story correctly.

 

[MinervaDoe]

There's a movie about it a long time ago. I wonder if it tells the story correctly.

It gets close, but, no. For starters, the Mini 14 in the movie is full auto. The Mini 14 in the actual shootout was semi auto.

Here is a nice podcast that Mas Ayoob did on it.

http://proarmspodcast.com/2011/01/1...hn-hanlon-on-the-1986-fbi-firefight-in-miami/

 

[Wolf Spyder]

I remember the shoot-out. However, did we ever nail down what the cartridge was that passed all the FBI tests, before they watered it down? Was it a 170 gr @ 1300 fps?

 

[Jitterbug]

I may be wrong but I think it was the 180 grain @ 980 fps.

 

[rcd567]

I may be wrong but I think it was the 180 grain @ 980 fps.

That is the watered down version they ultimately settled on. Several sources I've found on the Internet (so take it for what it's worth) it was the 170 grain load @ 1300FPS that came in first overall in all the tests.

Edit to say that I was hoping that some ole packrat had a copy of the original published results. But sadly no....

 

[Lt Scott 14]

Upgraded my carry piece to a Colt 1911A(230 gr JHP), never looked back. Started carrying a back up in S&W, M38 Bodyguard 38 spec. Both for CCW use till hired at a Police Dept in 1990. Issued a M66 357 mag, 4 in bbl, we carried( 125 gr JHP) 357 rds. Same back up(M38), and a Rem 870 Shotty in the cruiser. After training, never felt under armed, till Waco.
Added Mini 14/223 cal. to trunk carry in cruiser. Body armor also became the norm on patrol.
The 10mm FBI platform was not accepted by any local Police dept. or Sheriff dept. in our area.
Note: The 40 cal has become popular with most LEOs, although the 9mm has had a comeback due to budget, dependable operation in weapons(G22 vs G17), easy to qual for all shooters.

 

[_The_Shadow]

Try this...
http://www.zoklet.net/totse/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html

 

[_The_Shadow]

FBI AMMUNITION TEST PERFORMANCE DATA

CAL MAKER BULLET Wt. GUN BBL VEL. FPE SUCCESS

.45 Fed HS 230 4506 5" 802 328fp 95%
.45 Rem JHP 185 645 5" 903 334fp 95%
.45 Fed HS 230 1911 5" 828 358fp 82%
.45 Fed JHP 185 4506 5" 874 313fp 90%
.45 Fed JHP 185 645 5" 953 373fp 57%
.45 Win S-Tip 185 4506 5" 951 371fp 50%

10mm Norma JHP 170 Delta 5" 1358 696fp 100%
10mm Fed JHP 180 Delta 5" 931 346fp 95%
10mm Win JHP 180 Delta 5" 955 364fp 92%
10mm IMP-3D JHP 180 Delta 5" 991 392fp 92%
10mm Buffalo Prfrg 191 Delta 5" 916 355fp 30%

.357 Fed HS 158 M13 3" 1183 490fp 100%
.357 Win JSP 158 M13 3" 1096 421fp 97%
.357 Win S-Tip 145 M13 3" 1166 437fp 82%

38sp Fed HS 147 M13 3" 874 249fp 92%
38sp Rem LHP 158 M13 3" 871 266fp 67%
38sp Fed LHP 158 M13 3" 834 244fp 70%
38sp Fed HS 129 M13 3" 841 202fp 60%
38sp Win LHP 158 M13 3" 808 229fp 65%
38sp Win S-Tip 125 M13 3" 843 197fp 17%

380 Win S-Tip 85 PPK 3" 954 171fp 20%

9mm Fed HS 147 226 4.25" 914 272fp 82%
9mm Fed HS 124 226 4.25" 1062 310fp 82%
9mm Win JHP 147 226 4.25" 902 265fp 62%
9mm Win S-Tip 115 226 4.25" 1091 303fp 35%<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[Maine1]

I had the report at one time, but don't ask me where it is now.
From memory, the 170 gr @ 1300 fps 10mm did come out ahead, as the rounds in the shootout were found to not have penetrated enough to damage some organs. Some lacked the velocity to expand enough to do more damage, and the report mentions that one officer lost his primary gun in the crash, and had to make do with his back up 357, loaded with 38's.

Also, the 170 grain bullet was an FMJ truncated cone- and i think that with this and the 200 TC FMJ is where all the "overpenetration" stuff comes from with the 10mm. Penetration is what was wanted at the time.

if one is to believe the gun press, the 10mm was too much of a handful for some agents were not shooters, and thus the reduced round, and then to .40 S+W. But the agents who were shooters loved it. Like much 'info" on the 10mm and guns ingeneral, the conventional wisdom has some BS in it.

 

[Wolf Spyder]

I do remember that they were really big on the angled windshield thing. I think they want to kill you before you get out of your car and start shooting...

 

[Maine1]

I thought it funny that 4 layers of denim was used for a "heavy clothing' test.