Is Your Carry Gun Really A Woobie?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Lunch Meat, May 13, 2018.

  1. Mayonator

    Mayonator

    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    878
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Location:
    Colorado
    That makes sense. The reason I brought paintball up, is the local police where I used to live liked to play with the kids. One of them said he'd rather go up against somebody who shot paper than somebody who played a lot of paintball. So, it was just, what's the word? Anecdotal.

    So far, my hobbies have not included training for a force on force encounter. And that's probably all it would ever be for me, a hobby. I'm a pretty firm believer in odds and not being stupid and putting myself in harm's way. Spent a fair amount of time in Albuquerque. That's a rough place. I often CC'd there, legally. Where I'm at now, sunscreen is all the protection I really need, and I've found EDCing a good multi-tool is an absolute must.

    I don't mean to mock anybody. People have different priorities. Carrying a gun where I'm at now this point in life would likely be more of a, what's the word again? Liability. Than anything else.
     
  2. Mayonator

    Mayonator

    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    878
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Location:
    Colorado
    I seem to remember the Branch Davidians handed the ATF's ass to them too, and they couldn't have been too well trained. Ultimately got burned out (by mistake probably) but when you put somebody's back to a wall, they can show a remarkable amount of puissance. (As in skill or clobbering capacity) They shot them through the wall (it was just 2x4s, insulation, and siding), forcing the agents to pull back in absolute panic. They had planned to breach a 2nd story window with an extension ladder, and they had no idea what hit them.

    Even the pros are subject to Murphy's Law. The Seal team that assasinated Osama Bin Ladin (yes, it was a hit) lost one of their super quiet helicopters coming in contact with (you guessed it) a WALL, and needed to call in another bird for evac. And seasoned warriors get cut to pieces by rank amateurs all too often. Some here could cite examples, I'm certain.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018

  3. hogarth

    hogarth

    Messages:
    2,005
    Likes Received:
    819
    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Like these guys, I prefer not to rely on luck. Each day I try to better myself, so that I can defeat the man I was yesterday. I have to assume that the bad guy is AT LEAST as skilled as I am. He's also more likely to be better acquainted with violence than I am.

    Yes, people without training win ALL THE TIME. I assume my attacker will be more dedicated:


    View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMktulB9ME
     
    fredj338 likes this.
  4. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    838
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 1999
    Location:
    Rebel South
    There is nothing wrong with that.. I continue to train and I want to be as strong and capable as I can be. Nothing I am saying is intended to suggest that training is not a good thing or that people need not train. What I take issue with is the suggestion that if you are not trained, you are incapable of successfully defending yourself. I don't believe I luck... if a person bests their attacker then they are the victor, plain and simple. Once we start thinking that if we are not tactical squirrels, we cant possible do anything about a crisis we suddenly are faced with, all that may be left is despair and inaction. That is simply not an attitude that I support or believe in. Good luck
     
    newglocker10mm and Warp like this.
  5. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,377
    Likes Received:
    5,678
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Incapable, no, leaning far too heavily on luck,yes.
     
  6. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Messages:
    20,050
    Likes Received:
    2,947
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Exactly.

    Plus pretending like reality is different than it is (very high success rate for lawful carriers/gun owners using firearms in self defense, even without any training) leads to anti-Rights and anti-Liberty beliefs about mandatory government training or proficiency tests, which in turn reduces the number of lawful defensive gun uses since the more hoops there are to jump through, the smaller the number who will do so in order to lawfully arm themselves
     
  7. BBMW

    BBMW

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    597
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    No. You're completely correct. Anyone who own, and, especially, carries, a gun should get significant training. I would never argue against this.

    But the flip side is that saying someone who has a gun, but hasn't pursued significant training is defenseless (my paraphrasing of the content of the video) is patently untrue.

     
  8. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,377
    Likes Received:
    5,678
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    I don't think anyone claims defenseless but certainly less capable. Not unlike driving, all good until a real emergency comes up. Probably why so many die in car accidents, limited driving skills.
    I generally assume the worst case not best case scenario. Why many of us carry btw, worst case scenarios. Leaning to skill vs luck. Luck has always been a fickle biatch. You hope the attacker runs at the sight of the gun but what if they press the attack?
     
  9. Schrag4

    Schrag4

    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    1,603
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Totally agree. Most guys who buy a gun and shoot a few boxes of ammo thinks they’re all set. Maybe they’re naturally gifted, but probably they are not. My only beef is with a prescription for specific training. That may seem simultaneously prohibitively expensive and “not necessary because I’m awesome” to someone new. It costs very little money and time to go shoot a local IDPA or USPSA match, and most will find out they don’t have any sort of muscle memory to fall back on and their methods for shooting tight groups don’t come to mind under pressure by default. If you know someone who bought a gun and didn’t go any further, drag them to a competition (and not just to watch). Even if they’re too stubborn to admit their shortcomings, they’ll at least have a good time, I promise.
     
    ExecutiveWill and Webologist like this.
  10. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,377
    Likes Received:
    5,678
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    The only thing is IDPA or USPSA is NOT training, good practice, but NOT training. IMO, everyone that carries a gun in public should have a minimum level of training. Most LEA require some minimum level of firearms training & qual. That is just me, but even home defense, you are just as likely to hurt yourself as be able to defend yourself from a determined attacker without some good basic training.
     
    ExecutiveWill likes this.
  11. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    838
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 1999
    Location:
    Rebel South
    There is no such thing as luck. You either manage it or you don't. If you do, it will be because of things you did right or things they did wrong or perhaps a combination of both. Luck does not win a football game, a fight or a hand of cards. Luck is a romanticized fallacy which is more akin to superstition than anything else. Its a nifty thing to say but it has no place in a merited discussion about tangible realities.

    I think that it is good practice for more IDPA but I do not think it is practice for real self defense. I will concede that it offers good gun handling skills but not fighting skills. You don't fight that way.
     
  12. Lunch Meat

    Lunch Meat

    Messages:
    921
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Defending from cover is always easier than assaulting
     
    H@zmatt likes this.
  13. Con43

    Con43

    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    1,440
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    High Desert
    What in your opinion is a minimum level of training ?. Just curious.
     
  14. hogarth

    hogarth

    Messages:
    2,005
    Likes Received:
    819
    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    I interpreted Shrag's statement you quoted as saying that training is important, and one way to prove to yourself that you don't have the skills you think you do ("you" generically, not "you" Fred) is by shooting competitively, which can quickly reveal the flaws in your game. With the flaws revealed, training and practice can be used to tighten things up.
     
    fredj338 likes this.
  15. Lunch Meat

    Lunch Meat

    Messages:
    921
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    I used to think I did pretty good practicing on my own until I got a chance to attend a professionally instructed class. I wasn’t 5 minutes into the class before I realized how much I didn’t know. It wasn’t until I got some hands on competent professional training that I realized how many areas I was completely over looking.

    Once I started getting some regular training and corrective criticisms my skill level increased exponentially.

    That said I am against any mandatory training standard for firearms ownership
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,377
    Likes Received:
    5,678
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Well we will agree to disagree on luck, good or bad, playing into ever day life. Plenty of people manage things perfectly but some dumbass thing happens that no one could see coming. Plane falls out of the sky & into your bedroom, bad luck.
     
  17. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,377
    Likes Received:
    5,678
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Well certainly more than being shown how to load & unload the gun. I personally feel the level should be quite high, LEA stds for carry in public. That gets a ton of flack & I have responded many times to it. Carrying a gun in public is an enormous responsibility & using it is even a higher level. I see newbs every weekend that can barely get the gun loaded & into/out of the holster safely. I am only glad the gen pop doesn't get to see it too.
     
  18. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    838
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 1999
    Location:
    Rebel South
    approximately 7 x easier by medieval standards
     
  19. Dannyi

    Dannyi

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Not an expert by any means, but I think 50% or more that CC do it because they think it’s cool, and don’t realize the responsibility they have undertaken. I’ve seen & heard how cool they think it is and can barely load they’re weapon.
     
    H@zmatt likes this.
  20. Mayonator

    Mayonator

    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    878
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Location:
    Colorado
    Carrying a gun seems cool until you do it some, then it's a pain mostly, IMO... I don't know about it being this huge responsibility I keep hearing about. I'm responsible for my own actions, and what I do behind the wheel is more of an undertaking than making sure my gun isn't printing too much and wondering who else is carrying.

    Shooting (or offering to shoot) somebody is a whole other realm. A pistol is an emergency survival tool, that's all. Unless somebody's survival is at stake, it's just an uncomfortable hunk of metal digging into my side.