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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While at lunch today two KCMO police officers responded to a 911 call from the Taco Bell that I stopped at. Prior to my arrival a man had caused a disturbance throwing a few drinks arround the resturant and threatening to ******* up the manager. I didn't realize anything had happened until the two officers entered, one of whom was carring a M-4 carbine at low ready. Upon realizing the scene was secure he relaxed to just holding the rifle.

Is it typical to take a long arm into a situation like this? I had never seen anything like that in the US before.
 

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Tough to say without knowing how it was dispatched.
 

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Dictated by agency policy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks guys.

That part of town is the bad area. I wouldn't hang out there after dark. However, my school is smack in the middle of it, but then again so is the best hospital in the region.
 

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If I have any doubt about whether I might need a long gun based on what dispatch says, I bring it with me just in case. If it is dispatched as a weapons call, I will not go in to find out whether dispatch go it right. I will definitely bring the long gun.
 

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Just with the BARE MINIMUM facts from your post, I can see how the call might have been dispatched along the lines of... "All units in the vicinity of the Taco Bell at 123 XYZ Avenue, employees report a billergent Martian Male Adult becoming verbally and physically abusive toward customers and employees. Unknown if armed or of any other suspects at this time, proceed with caution."

This could easily dictate an elevated response that can be adjusted accordingly once arriving on scene and making heads or tails of things.
 

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Another possibility is that Johnny Law got himself a new rifle with his tax refund, and wanted to show it off.



;)
 

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My guess is from your description of the area, they responded appropriately. I've met some KCMO cops that took rounds in their cars and could never identify the source or the shooter.

Second rule of gunfighting: have the largest gun you can possibly carry.
 

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"employees report a billergent Martian Male Adult becoming verbally and physically abusive toward customers and employees"

If I heard there was a billergent Martian I would at least have my Phaser!!:rofl:
But, IMHO, I think a shotgun would be slightly more appropriate. And not to be overly critical but I would have left both shotgun and rifle locked in the vehicle. Covered the area a little better, they might have, and not go parading in! Contact the reporting party once you and your partner are deployed and ask if the person was still inside and for additional information. It's hard for both officers to engage in hand to hand combat in a setting full of innocent parties. It's even harder if one officer is concentrating on controlling his long gun! :cool:
 

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I think a shotgun would be slightly more appropriate. And not to be overly critical but I would have left both shotgun and rifle locked in the vehicle. Covered the area a little better, they might have, and not go parading in! Contact the reporting party once you and your partner are deployed and ask if the person was still inside and for additional information.
Some agencies don't carry both.
Good luck getting dispatch to coordinate the response you envision, or getting some businesses to cooperate.
 

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The handgun is always on my belt (on- and off-duty) because I don't know if I'll need it.

If I think I'll need a gun, I bring a long gun...and some friends with guns too.

Andy
 

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Often quoted:

"A pistol is always with you, and if needed should be used to fight your way to a long gun".
 

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Trigger Finger said:
But, IMHO, I think a shotgun would be slightly more appropriate. And not to be overly critical but I would have left both shotgun and rifle locked in the vehicle. Covered the area a little better, they might have, and not go parading in!
Then you'd be wrong.

Slugs would be a bad choice, and unless you are close, buckshot would be a poor choice.

Shotgun would also be less effective if you have to shoot through glass, like you seem to suggest with your deployment theory.

You also don't know if the officers scanned prior to going in. Going in would seem to be a strategy that lessens the likelyhood of a barricaded suspect with hostages, or an active shooter getting a start.

Plus you are assuming there were only 2 officers there.
 

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I would gladly tote my rifle into my calls as necessary. I shoot a whole lot better with the AR than my G22. Besides, calls often go sideways within seconds, from angry subjects to shots fired, in a blink.

Policy, situation, location type all dictates what can be used. We are fairly liberal in allowing the use of rifles (in comparison to places like, oh, LA or NYC - we actually trust the rank and file to tote rifles . . . )
 

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Then you'd be wrong.

Slugs would be a bad choice, and unless you are close, buckshot would be a poor choice.

Shotgun would also be less effective if you have to shoot through glass, like you seem to suggest with your deployment theory.

You also don't know if the officers scanned prior to going in. Going in would seem to be a strategy that lessens the likelyhood of a barricaded suspect with hostages, or an active shooter getting a start.

Plus you are assuming there were only 2 officers there.
Why would slugs be a bad choice but a rifle, according to you would be good? But I would have used Buckshot, with proper aiming all pellets will be in the 9 ring at 15 yards! And you should be able to keep all pellets in a silhouette target, with no over penetration at 25 yards. I don't know if the officers scanned the area BUT I said they may have! You can assume anything on any call but barricaded suspect or active shooter was not an issue here. Likewise What was in the initial post were two officers. I guess out of that I could assume that the entire department had the location surrounded.

Allot of you think that you NEED to take the rifle with you on calls because it is discretionary. But that is not the reason for having a rifle. You should use the rifle only where is a demonstrable need or information requiring it. Yes, their is always the possibility of getting involved in a shooting but that is the nature of the beast.
It sounds like you guys are saying "Barking Dog call, partner, I'm taking the AR15, the dog might turn on us or the owner might shoot at us, also call for backup with more rifles!" Don't use the rifle as a crutch and get much better with your primary handgun. :tongueout:
 

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Why would slugs be a bad choice but a rifle, according to you would be good? But I would have used Buckshot, with proper aiming all pellets will be in the 9 ring at 15 yards! And you should be able to keep all pellets in a silhouette target, with no over penetration at 25 yards. I don't know if the officers scanned the area BUT I said they may have! You can assume anything on any call but barricaded suspect or active shooter was not an issue here. Likewise What was in the initial post were two officers. I guess out of that I could assume that the entire department had the location surrounded.

Allot of you think that you NEED to take the rifle with you on calls because it is discretionary. But that is not the reason for having a rifle. You should use the rifle only where is a demonstrable need or information requiring it. Yes, their is always the possibility of getting involved in a shooting but that is the nature of the beast.
It sounds like you guys are saying "Barking Dog call, partner, I'm taking the AR15, the dog might turn on us or the owner might shoot at us, also call for backup with more rifles!" Don't use the rifle as a crutch and get much better with your primary handgun. :tongueout:
Buckshot/Slug overpenetrate more through interior walls than 5.56. They are also worse at going through glass accurately. With multiple civillians around I want the security of knowing that I only have one projectile to worry about when I press the trigger. I have far more ammo available on my person for the rifle than for the shotgun if the need actually does arise to use it.

Since the Poplowski shooting last year our dispatchers have been re-trained to grill callers about weapons before dispatching us to the call. The caller may just be reporting a disorderly male, but remember the power of suggestion. When the call taker asks "sir, does the suspect have, or could he possible be concealing any weapons on or nearby?" The caller often responds "I have no idea, I suppose he could be" in which case the call gets dispatched as having possible weapons involvement.

If I get a call for a nutjob tearing up a store who is possibly armed, you are damn right I'm bringing the long gun out until I see that the scene is secure.
 

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"Buckshot/Slug overpenetrate more through interior walls than 5.56."
silverado_mick What are you basing this on? Is this your opinion or is there some supporting info? All my years of training and carrying an AR15 indicates just the opposite is true!! And I am sure you are aware that 95% of all police shootings are 10 shots or less.

From The Box of Truth web site:
"Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case."
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


I guess some officers need to go EVERYWHERE with their assault rifle!
 

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"Buckshot/Slug overpenetrate more through interior walls than 5.56."
silverado_mick What are you basing this on? Is this your opinion or is there some supporting info? All my years of training and carrying an AR15 indicates just the opposite is true!! And I am sure you are aware that 95% of all police shootings are 10 shots or less.

From The Box of Truth web site:
"Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case."
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


I guess some officers need to go EVERYWHERE with their assault rifle!
Color me embarrassed :supergrin:.

I actually was going off what I thought I remembered correctly reading on the website you so kindly cited. Guess my memory is a little dyslexic???

I thought the results of that test were reversed, my fault. Still and all, if I'm going to get in a gunfight, I'm taking my rifle with me. Short of knowing exactly how this particular call was dispatched it is impossible to know if the officer was just stroking his stick or if there was a "need" to have the long gun out in the first place. Without more info a proper MMQB session is impossible.

As far as "going everywhere" with our rifles os concerned, I do take mine "everywhere" I go while at work. It's in the trunk, where I can't get to it in a hurry if I suddenly need it. IF the call comes across as something that had a potential to turn deadly in a hurry, THEN I would prefer to take the most effective tool to resolve the issue with me at the risk of offending the sheeple's delicate sensibilities, rather than have to fight it out with what is known to be a marginal man-stopper at best.

Of course, your jurisdiction may be a far different climate than mine, so your tactics would be adjusted accordingly. Here at my agency it is our discretion if we take the rifle out or not, and with 5 officers dead to gunfire in my immediate area last year (all to fire from long guns, 4 to AK's), I'm not taking any chances.
 
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