[LinuxLover]

.... I'm just spinnig some mental wheels here, but I wonder if there's any useful information in computing the height of the centerline of the barrel, to the centerline of the trigger?

I've heard mentioned here and at the pistol range that if the center of reaction (recoil) is too high in relation to the shooter' s hand, the pistol's 'kick' is perceived as harsher than if that value is of a lower ratio?

Does this make sense?

It's so hard to quantify feelings and desires..... to say that such-and-such firearm has the kick of a mule, of is as soft as a mouse fart.

Numbers make more sense to me than feelings and desires.

 

[zeleny]

Pistol Bore Axis: Comparison and Explanation

 

[LinuxLover]

Reading it.... now. Tnx.

 

[LinuxLover]

Very interesting. I see that the Glock 17.4 came in 3rd. I'm a Glock fanboi..... as it's the only firearm I currently own .... not counting a .177 cal pellet pistol

What size frame is the 17?...... full sized like my Glock 20.4? I only have my Glock as a gold standard.

The G17.4 had a bore axis height of 1.26" for a score alignment index of .81, and I see no 10mms on the chart.

I don't know- nor speak- for others, but I find the Glock model/caliber/size-enumeration system escapes me as of yet, and since i'm in a motel in Kalispell tonight, I'm not in a position to look at my Glock Buyers' Guide at the mo. I didn't bring it with me, unfortunately.

https://www.guntweaks.com/uploads/1...re-axis-comparison-chart-guntweaks_7_orig.png

TIA

 

[bac1023]

The bore axis changes the amount of muzzle flip, not really the recoil. I have some very low bore axis pistols that have sharp recoil. The straight blowback Astra 600 comes to mind. No muzzle rise, but sharp recoil straight back.

The bore axis works like a lever. The higher it is, the more leverage the recoil has to make the muzzle rise. It’s simple physics.

 

[LinuxLover]

It looks like the G17 is almost .5" better than a 1911.... but I always thought the 1911 was kinda the standard of the industry.

1911 - 1.74" vs G17.4 - 1.26"

Can I just generally assume all 1911 45 cal. ACPs have the same grip angles and bore axis?

 

[bac1023]

It looks like the G17 is almost .5" better than a 1911.... but I always thought the 1911 was kinda the standard of the industry.

1911 - 1.74" vs G17.4 - 1.26"

Can I just generally assume all 1911 45 cal. ACPs have the same grip angles and bore axis?

They should be very similar, yes.

The 1911 has a mid bore axis

 

[Bill Keith]

Holy mackerel, are you on The Spectrum? Yours is one of the weirdest questions. You shoot increasingly stronger calibers and loadings until you find one that you just can't tolerate and stop there, backing down to the caliber or loading you can tolerate.

 

[bac1023]

Yeah he’s overthinking it a bit.

It’s really not that complicated...

 

[ithaca_deerslayer]

Pistol Bore Axis: Comparison and Explanation

You win the internets this week

Interestung that the Beretta 92 has one of the highest axis on the list, but it shoots like a dream. Just shows other things factor in, such as weight, caliber, grip size, etc

 

[bac1023]

You win the internets this week

Interestung that the Beretta 92 has one of the highest axis on the list, but it shoots like a dream. Just shows other things factor in, such as weight, caliber, grip size, etc

The bore axis doesn’t really change the perceived recoil. It changes the amount of muzzle rise.

Like I said above, try shooting an Astra 600 sometime. It has an extremely low bore axis, yet has a nasty “kick” straight back. The Astra is also all steel, fairly heavy and only chambered in 9mm. The design of the gun is the factor.

No muzzle rise, but a lot of recoil.

 

[ctxcummins]

The bore axis doesn’t really change the perceived recoil. It changes the amount of muzzle rise.

Like I said above, try shooting an Astra 600 sometime. It has an extremely low bore axis, yet has a nasty “kick” straight back. The Astra is also all steel, fairly heavy and only chambered in 9mm. The design of the gun is the factor.

No muzzle rise, but a lot of recoil.

Its akin to comparing the recoil/muzzle flip from a .357 J frame to a .357 N frame. Because the J frame barrel sits lower in relation to the trigger, it should have less muzzle flip with hot loads (in theory and in completely unscientific comparing my SP101 to 686).

The J frame will be more punishing to shoot because of the lack of weight, of course.

I used revolvers in my comparison because there's no moving mass and springs to absorb recoil like there is in a semi-auto.

 

[fnfalman]

I used revolvers in my comparison because there's no moving mass and springs to absorb recoil like there is in a semi-auto.

Nope. That's a very typical layman's misunderstanding. Recoil is the same - a pistol shooting the same cartridge as a revolver AND weighs the same will have the same recoil as dictated by the theory of Conservation of Momentum whereas m1v1 = m2v2.

"Felt" recoil is different because of springs and moving masses and such because now we're talking about the momentum impulse being acted over a different time interval. Of course we are not even talking about the size of the grip affecting "felt" recoil either.

 

[fnfalman]

.... I'm just spinnig some mental wheels here, but I wonder if there's any useful information in computing the height of the centerline of the barrel, to the centerline of the trigger?

I've heard mentioned here and at the pistol range that if the center of reaction (recoil) is too high in relation to the shooter' s hand, the pistol's 'kick' is perceived as harsher than if that value is of a lower ratio?

Does this make sense?

It's so hard to quantify feelings and desires..... to say that such-and-such firearm has the kick of a mule, of is as soft as a mouse fart.

Numbers make more sense to me than feelings and desires.

Stop listening to people at the "range" or on the internet. Rent or buy some guns and shoot them. That activity will tell you how things truly are.

 

[ctxcummins]

Nope. That's a very typical layman's misunderstanding. Recoil is the same - a pistol shooting the same cartridge as a revolver AND weighs the same will have the same recoil as dictated by the theory of Conservation of Momentum whereas m1v1 = m2v2.

"Felt" recoil is different because of springs and moving masses and such because now we're talking about the momentum impulse being acted over a different time interval. Of course we are not even talking about the size of the grip affecting "felt" recoil either.

Damn engineers.

But yeah, I know. I was referring to felt recoil but I was trying to keep from being too wordy in my other post.

Ya know, "layman's terms."

 

[bac1023]

Pistol Bore Axis: Comparison and Explanation

They should have included the Strike One or Archon Type B.

I'm fairly certain the bore axis is lower than the Steyr.

 

[ithaca_deerslayer]

"Felt" recoil is different because

When someone talking about guns says "recoil", 99 out of 50 times I assume they are talking about "felt recoil".

I might be wrong that other 3% of the times

 

[LinuxLover]

Holy mackerel, are you on The Spectrum? Yours is one of the weirdest questions. You shoot increasingly stronger calibers and loadings until you find one that you just can't tolerate and stop there, backing down to the caliber or loading you can tolerate.

I don't know what's a "weirdest question" since obviously someone else believed it was chartable and produced data on the ratios of a number of pistols.

My thought was that if someone wanted a certain caliber, they could easier research the what I call the: "twelve o'clock factor" wherein a pistol jumps up, off target..... and is harder to control in a rapid fire situation...... that's all.

I think it was a valid question, else I wouldn't have asked it. Then almost immediately, a kind soul directed me to an article where that research had been already done, providing answers to my so called "weirdest question".

So there!

Maybe you just don't like me.... I dunnow.



PS..... I have no idea what "The Spectrum" is. Should I Google-it?

 

[LinuxLover]

Stop listening to people at the "range" or on the internet. Rent or buy some guns and shoot them. That activity will tell you how things truly are.

...... and that's a perfectly valid point you make....... but (there's always a 'but')......

Scenario #1
You noticed a store that you never noticed before..... selling guns..... and you go in buying 30 or 40 pistols so you can cull out the ones you don't like.

You shoot the first one and say to yourself "This one is so-o-o powerful and hurts my hand. I don't like it very much."

The next pistol is so gentle and it doesn't hurt your hand, but the bullet dribbles out the end of the barrel and you say: "Ewww! This'll never do!" and you put that pistol down.

But the next pistol shoots perfectly nicely, hitting your target smartly where you pointed it and you say: "This pistol is ju-u-st right" and you put all the other guns up for a quick sale on Craig's List where your ISP immediately gets banned because Craig's List has draconian rules against selling anything even vaguely related to firearms on its website.

You are forever banned and can never visit Craig's List again! Oh my!

Scenario #2
You notice mounds of dirt are rising in your back yard with arms and heads frantically trying to crawl out of the ground.... and you instantly realize why your house was sold so cheap.....YOU LIVE OVER AN OLD GRAVEYARD! THE RUMORS ARE TRUE!

You hitch up your horse to a wagon and drive...... reins flying, hooves shashing and wheels chattering.... down to the village yelling: "The Zombies are coming! The Zombies are coming!"........ screeching up to a halt in front of Uncle Dooley's Accordians R-Us & Pistol Shoppe", and having committed the results of the Pistol Axis Ratio Chart you read just yesterday, (yesterday, seemingly so long ago at this point) in the public library....... you correctly and decisively grab the best firearm for you.

Since you had done your pre-sale purchasing research, every shot you take quickly dispatches a zombie.

You save your village, save the young maidens and damsels-in-distress not to mention husbands and other single men who unwisely didn't acquire the correct weapons for themselves ...... and now you have your choice of the best-o'-the-best ...... marrying her and living happily ever after......... but that story, boys and girls, remains to be told.... another day..... in another post...... same time.... same station.

So, you see. Having an Axis-thingy chart-reference-kabob........ already done for you and committed to memory...... one can make a better choice in personal things that go bang, in or outside of Zombie Uprisings .......or marriage.

I rest my case.

You, however, as recipient of this tome.... are so fortunate that I am retired, having the time at hand to help ease you over the rough parts of physical laws and charts, etc...... and not concerning myself even a little....that it's pouring rain and I have nothing else to do this morning but drink coffee and peck out the letters on this tiny 'keyboard' on my tablet.

All this in the name if science and edification of people who can read.......

Thou art so blessed that I am here!

 

[fnfalman]

When someone talking about guns says "recoil", 99 out of 50 times I assume they are talking about "felt recoil".

I might be wrong that other 3% of the times

You know what they say when you "assume".