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Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by mr00jimbo, Feb 24, 2013.
13 series here. The only cannon I ever fired downrange was a Mossberg.
"No professional application"... ok, that's funny.
+1! I can think of at least 10 professional applications and I gave it 5 seconds to think...
let me distill this for the mall ninjas and virtual reality warriors.
I own guns in these calibers:
9mm, 40 sw, 45 LC, 45 ACP
22lr, .223, 7mm mag, 7.62X39, .308
and 12 guage in 4 way different shotguns. The bottom line is if necessary, I'd pick one one my concealed carried pistols and two of my 12 guage shotguns if I only got to keep three guns...
one gun... my 11-87... (two barrels)
...don't confuse offense with defense... really on defense, in my 75yd and under world, is anything better than a good shotgun?
and don't confuse in the SHTF scenario, that a gun can bring protein/dinner along with protection... again none better than a 12g.
For offense I want multiple drones, rpgs, machine guns etc... you get idea taking means working your way in... yes, if I want to start a war I'd go rifle... with a lot of other guys with rifles.
But standing as a "normal" guy with a suburban "castle" to protect hand me a 12 guage and I'm OK
Is this thread meant to be a joke?
...are we talking "Internet logic" or the real world?
I'll take a Benelli M4 topped with an Aimpoint T1 and 2 deep pockets of 00 buck and sabot slugs for any defensive scenario.
With a medium choke you will consistently ding steel silhouettes at 80 yards with the buckshot.
Spend more than 200.00 for your shotgun, might change your opinion.
I have no doubt a SG can do anything I need from a longarm out to realistic combat distances and as a do-it-all gun it's about the best there is. Add an extra barrel and the SG is just as relevant a tool as it was 200+ years ago for folks who could only afford one gun.
It may not be the best at every role, esp within the parameters of military use, but between the vast selection of ammo from dust shot to game loads for duck to Brenneke KO's that hold into 4"/5 shots 100yrds.....it's hard to knock the scattergun.
Besides, it's got good spread!!!
Everybody everywhere seems to recognize the boom-stick!
It's still a bit dismaying how many folks who are new to shotguns, or who haven't done any training or practice with them of more than a cursory level, are sometimes taken aback and shocked when they experience missing a "threat target" on the range, with all their shots, with whatever type of buckshot is being used. (Dismaying, but unsurprising, if they only shoot them when required to do so for quals.)
It's amazing what a little training can do for someone interested in accurately & effectively using a shotgun (or rifle), in as little as 8 hours (and obviously in up to 40 hours).
The hunter & sporting clays folks understandably have less troubles, for the most part.
It's one of those instances where someone may attempt to engage threat targets with buckshot at 5-10 yds, or at 25-35 yds with slugs, and after they promptly miss with all shots they turn and ask you (instructor) how they could have possibly missed that many times ... and you bite your tongue, not saying that however they did it, they really made it look easy.
Friend gets a 12 ga pump with a simple bead front sight... several of us go to the range... no one can hit the target at 25 yards with slugs... friend hands the gun and says; See if you can hit anything with this. First shot boom dead center. Surprised the hell out of everyone. They all wanted to know "how". I said that all i did was line up the front sight with the center of the receiver and the center of the target and pull the trigger.
All the above concerning rifles over SGs is why I didn't go too heavy into a SG. I use mine for hallway clearing; or, if on the road or confronted in my yard by more than one trouble maker, I don't have to worry as much with collateral damage to homes as with say a 7.62/39 out of an AK or SKS.
On the road if I break down somewhere unsavory or along an interstate in a downpour, my wife can easily cover me with a light manuverable attention getter.
"S_____!!! She's got a 12 gage! Hey, it's ok lady!!! Wee's just a-leavin!!"
Is that a tactical shotgun in your pocket? Or are you just happy to see me?
Was this odd question asked in the Tactical Shotgun Forum??
Aiming. Imagine that!?!
I remember when I was a new guy and had to go through my first shotgun qual.
After the buckshot stages were done they gave me 2 rifled slugs and told me I had to hit the silhouette somewhere in the scored area with both of them from 50 yds. It wasn't considered an out-of-the-ordinary skill level back then, and that was using the older 870's with the bead mounted directly on top of the barrel (instead of being elevated on a pedestal).
Nowadays I see cops who appear a bit intimidated when asked to get 70% of a handful of slugs on a target while shooting from 35 yds.
...and the probably "make" about 50% "on target" with more than half of those being superficial wounds outside of both the primary and secondary lethal zones.
As you pointed out though, 40 hours and a few thousand repetitions is a quick cure for that.
...then watch the skill set diminish over time.
...then add real-world-stress and watch the hit percentage go *below* the 50% on target that they started with.
Meanwhile, an officer trained in the basics of SRM with a carbine can put nearly 100% of his rounds through the primary lethal zone with two feet firmly planted... and a bit less under stress.
The pump shotgun is not dead for breaching and non-lethal application, but it remains the most manipulation intensive weapon you can field, and the one that requires the most training to reach a basic level of effectiveness.
KY DOC instructors and CERT has to hit 5/7 from 50, annually.
KY CERT is well versed in SG's, it's the primary weapon. Although there will always be a .223 somewhere around.
This. At 100 yards or less, with slugs, it has the potential to be just as accurate and lethal as a rifle bullet.
Inside of 45 yards, you've got a hell of a manstopper with the right buckshot. I don't have a HD shotgun, but it will probably be the next gun I get.
I love that your "facts" have so little to do with the OP, or his argument, yet are presented like they're somehow deciding factors.
I know... this is really weird actually...
WTF is a "giggle switch?"
You talk like a dirtshooter.
FA is overrated in it's usefulness by those who are unacquainted. Burst is more so...
Why is this relevant? I'm going to throw an extractor every 8,000 rounds and you are going to have to replace a shotgun's extractor every... I don't even know... who cares??
Why is this relevant?
What scenario are we imagining now???
Your home is under attack by some battle-hardened Muj or something?
I agree- let's eliminate this thread as quickly as possible:
The shotgun is the most manipulation intensive weapon you can field, and the one that requires the most training to reach a basic level of effectiveness.
The strengths of the shotgun- "spread," "man-stopperability," "scary pump noises" are greatly overstated in their effectiveness.
The weaknesses of the shotgun- extremely manipulation intensive manual of arms, limited capacity, long and cumbersome to maneuver, stout recoil, poor ergos and limited ability to mount required accessories, like a light are very real.
Yeah... and what are they used for?
C'mon... I'll give you a minute to think about it. You can even use the Google...
Breaching and non-lethal application.
Or, in all honesty, most just stay in the rack or get left in the truck.
"...and if ya don't know, now ya know, NINJA!"
Far from obsolete...out to 50 yards with 00 Buck, out to 100 yards with slugs...past that rifle. I haven't seen too many people survive close range shootings with 00 Buck from a 12G.