In the thread questioning whether God/Jesus were Creative failures another GT'er questioned me when I stated that many cycles of re-creating humanity (Adam-Eve/ Cain-Abel/ Noah -The Flood, etc.) seemed to occur at the expense of the relatively innocent, already created human beings, The response cited scriptures related to The Crucifixion and made me think of the following; ----- Not sure why you are citing the scriptures regarding the crucifixion of Jesus. Most Christians cite it to show an example of great sacrifice. However, when viewed objectively, it is not all that it is cracked up to be. First and foremost, it is not as if the Romans or Judas, or Christ, had a choice, ( well, I presume, that as Creator, and as the wonderful old hymn says, He could have called 10,000 angels and backed out at the last minute, but...) it was Christ's destiny in the world He created that brought about His Crucifixion. It was foretold and prophesied since the Old Testament that somebody ( some marionette ) out of the world of human beings was doomed to be the one to betray Christ. Somebody had to betray Christ and then somebody had to kill him. Certainly when considering a situation that is foretold as one that must come to pass in order to usher in a new beginning, there was little to no free will involved in the decisions of the people playing the parts of betrayers. In the case of poor Judas, Christ's foretelling of this destiny even narrowed it down to 1 out of 12 that would betray Him. ...sickening to contemplate how bad Judas felt after betraying not only his good friend, but the nicest person on the planet. Especially if Judas was just a pawn playing a role that some poor sap unlucky enough to be alive at the time of Christ had to do. The trouble with most Christians is they are too intellectually dishonest to connect the dots between an omniscient and omnipotent Creator that can foresee the future He has created, and the lack of true freewill for the created beings within such a construct. Secondly, as absolutely horrific as it is, the actual physical pain that is capable of being suffered by a human being nailed to a stick for one day is nowhere near the levels of pain that are endured by vast numbers of modern human beings EVERY DAY, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, somewhere on this planet. Thirdly, all of the physical pain and emotional (Father why have you forsaken me) turmoil was (relatively speaking) easily overcome by the simple fact that Christ knew who he was, and the reason for His sacrifice. Specifically, Christ knew He was immortal, and knew He would go to Heaven when He died and be a king of the Universe forever. Furthermore, with Christ knowing the reason for His sacrifice, we now have to consider the aspect of Christianity (applicable to all) that a noble purpose often goes a long way in assuaging the pain of torture and death, especially if it is the MOST noble purpose ever. This stands in stark contrast when compared to the millions that have died horrible deaths relatively in vain, Christ knew why He was being nailed to a stick, he knew it was worth it, and He knew he would rise again. Despite pious thinking, no other human being has been given the luxury of knowing some wonderful thing is going to happen to them after they die, and that they are dying for the greatest cause for which one has ever died, let alone knowing they are the Alpha and Omega. In conclusion, how does such a relatively small sacrifice rise to such elevated heights, let alone absolve mankind of all wrongdoing. and if Jesus created everything, including and especially our propensity for sin, isnt forgiveness something that is owed to us? What do you think?