Is 5 shots enough? Part II

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by TheDreadnought, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. BBMW

    BBMW

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    Unless your Jerry Miculek, reloading a J-frame in combat is a theoretical concept at best.

     
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  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Cant disagree there! Better to put themselves in harms way vs others.:cheers:
     

  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    A practiced, reasonably skilled revo shooter can get a 4sec reload with a speed lader off their belt. Put it in a pocket, add maybe 1.5-2sec. You are totally screwed against a committed attacker.
     
  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    A charging attacker with a machete?!? :eek:

    I'd much rather not have to rely on any handgun for that scenario, but would much rather have access to a shotgun or rifle.

    That said, a handgun is the best compromise for lawful daily carry, so it's the compromise with which we typically have to work for off-duty and private carry.

    Having watched the "average" cop for more than 26 years of serving as an instructor (longer, if you count the years before I was an instructor), and some CCW-type carriers for 10 years while helping teach private citizen classes, "reloading" isn't something that's going to happen quickly for most people, even under ideal conditions, regardless of whether it's pistol or revolver. Toss in even some minimal stress and it becomes something that makes you wonder if you could use a sun dial. o_O

    There's more than a little truth to the saying that you're more likely to run out of time, before you run out of ammunition. Even if double stack pistols are involved.

    The old "I can reload during a lull the shooting" only works if you have a "lull". Try coming up with a list of actual documented shooting incidents where there was a convenient "lull" during the shooting.

    Yep, spare mags are pretty handy to have if you're forced to attempt to resolve mag-related stoppages ... and don't run out of time.

    For the general discussion underway among everyone else ...

    Another thing that isn't mentioned often anymore is the practicality of using a DA revolver, especially a Centennial or Bodyguard (not the plastic one) style snub, if the circumstances result in a close quarters, up-close "fight" situation.

    The snub revolver is harder for an attacker to grasp; it can't be pushed out-of-battery; it isn't susceptible to grip stability problems (to allow cycling and feeding); and there's no slide that requires critical space behind it in order to cycle, meaning eject an empty case and feed another round. Yes, someone can grab the cylinder to prevent it from carrying up, but it's just as easy, if not easier, to grasp a slide that protrudes further forward.

    In other words, if the situation evolves into a close contact fight, there are still practical values for the use of a smaller snub revolver.

    Instead of worrying about 'capacity envy', it's prudent to focus on choosing the best option for an individual's private concealment choice, or off-duty/secondary weapon choice, and then learn to run the gun as effectively as possible, preparing for the most likely anticipated circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  5. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

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    We are talking a unknown. Has anyone found a report of a armed self defense where the “good guy” has said afterwards. “I wish I had brought less ammo”?
    Even when unarmed (sigma .380) I don’t have a spare mag for it. I normally have 5 loose rounds in pants watch pocket.
    Just being able to reload after in case more trouble shows before the Police get there.
    If I could comfortable I would carry a G21 couple spare mags. But I’m lazy.
     
  6. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Oddly enough, while I've listened to guys who were glad they had hi-cap pistols and extra magazines during their shooting incidents ... there were also guys involved in shooting incidents where they didn't say they'd wished they had more ammunition, because they didn't need all of the ammunition they'd had at their disposal in the first place.

    Now, I have listened to an unsurprising number of folks who expressed relief that they'd been able to make aimed shots, and a couple who were glad they'd been trained to make accurate flash-sight or indexed/point shoulder shots during critical moments in their shooting incidents.
     
  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Oh yeah, the reason I make the comment about having been trained to make accurate flash-sight picture or indexed/point shoulder shots? Listening to people who have found themselves in dynamic and chaotic shooting incidents, it seems it's just as easy to "instinctively" miss, as to "instinctively" hit with a shot. Training and practice can help. ;)
     
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  8. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    As an aside, that’s one of the reasons I still practice shooting revolvers (including reloads). A snubbie is still one of my go to carry guns... but I’m still a little bit of a capacity seeker, so I carry 7 and 8 shot snubbies with 2-3” barrels. I get the close quarter benefits of a revolver while still getting more rounds than a stock G42-43.
     
  9. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Hey, nothing inherently 'wrong' with having 6, 7 or 8 shots in a short barreled revolver. It usually means you've gone from pocketable snub to belt gun, but it also gains you a larger grip, as well as more heft to aid controllability and recoil management.

    All handguns are a compromise in one way or another, and where you find that preferable spot on the compromise spectrum is something only you can decide.

    I've known a few survivors of on & off-duty shooting incidents who elected to continue carrying both revolvers and pistols. First and foremost it's still about making the intended hit, or hits, meaning quickly and accurately.
     
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  10. OttoLoader

    OttoLoader

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    The subject of untrained private carriers shooting up people near by does not appear often in the press.

    Could it be that the anti gun press is missing an opportunity? I have not seen any recent such stories.

    Or could it be a somewhat rare occurrence.

    According to John Lott there are about 18.6 million permits. This does include some that have permits in more than one state.
    But also there is now more than 16 permit-less states.

    In any case millions of private citizens are carrying. Not many reports of them shooting up the place due to lack of training. Sort of reminds me of blood in the streets wild west scare tactics by the antis.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  11. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    I don’t ever pants pocket guns because the draw is clumsy for me.

    I do bag or jacket pocket carry revolvers and for that purpose even the N-frame revolvers work just fine and can be on target without ever “brandishing,” like in elevator type situations or other very close quarter situations where you couldn’t draw on a drawn weapon. But jacket pocket revolver (for me) adds situational options that an AIWB auto loader sometimes doesn’t have.
     
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  12. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Pocket holster carry isn't for everyone, nor is pocket holster carry necessarily the same for everyone who does find it useful.

    I have some cargo shorts that have front pockets more than generous enough to swallow a 5" 1911, with room to spare (height-wise). The problem when I used to sometimes pocket carry similarly large and weighty pistols, and even some of my compacts & subcompacts, is that the weight of them bumping against the front of my thigh became annoying, especially when walking briskly.

    Mas published at least one article some years ago where he measured the time involved in drawing and presenting from a pants pocket holster. Naturally, the chief "advantage" was that a hand could be surreptitiously grasping the grip frame without it being obvious to onlookers. That can make a draw faster, as it essentially eliminates the "reaching for, finding and grasping" part of the draw.

    That's an inherent advantage that's often been extolled by agencies who provide their uniform cops with secondary snubs, as the cops could have their hands on the secondary weapon, versus keeping their hands on their primary belt weapons, which could alarm, rankle or offend some person with whom they might have contact.

    Sure, this can also be handy when the pocket-holstered snub is carried in a jacket or coat pocket, but care must be exercised to make sure the mouth of the jacket or coat pocket is such that it won't allow the weapon to easily fall out of the pocket. Security in pocket holster carry also involves considering the pocket size and mouth for both retention and access. ;)

    This was one of the reasons I enjoyed using both jeans, cargo pants and jacket/fleece carry methods throughout the seasonal changes while working on our range. I could use the pocket holstered snubs from the different pockets that would normally be used off the range. It not only allowed me practice in the normal training drills and qual scenarios, but it helped me better identify the misc advantages and disadvantages that could be experienced with each type.

    Nowadays my pocket holster carry methods for retirement are simply a continuation of the methods I'd invested practice in using during my years serving as a firearms instructor, as well as for off-duty and some secondary roles.
     
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  13. OttoLoader

    OttoLoader

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    The lcp in a front pocket carry is used by me frequently.
    I use a hunter leather pocket holsters with the rectangular leather to appear as a wallet.
     
  14. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Reality is there are very few ccw shootings in public. Why many are comfy with littoe skill or traning & a pocket rocket. Carry often shoot very little is very common among the majority of those legally carrying a gun. Unfortunate but is the norm.
     
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  15. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    The number of voluntarily (by LE) reported instances of the shooting and killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen, typically number lower than those shot & killed by LE, according to the nationally reported stats.

    The number of unintended GSW victims shot and killed by private citizens probably falls under various manslaughter and other degrees of murder, so they'd be a bit more difficult to track.

    They do seem to pop up in the news now and then, though.

    https://www.clickondetroit.com/news...ors-fatal-shooting-during-alleged-dog-attack/

    You can't call a bullet back.
     
  16. Quickling

    Quickling

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    It felt just fine for me last night.

    Around 02:00 we were trying to sleep on shift when there was a loud bang on the side of the firehouse that has a man door (forgotten because it leads into a boiler room). I figured it was most likely ice, but our crew quarters does not lock and I did not like the fact that my partner and I might fall asleep with someone lurking in the large building with us. Its also completely possible that random fire fighters could be hanging out/drinking late at night, it is a weekend after all.

    The entire building has cameras that we do not have access to, and I absolutely need to keep my carry concealed as we are guests that stage in the firehouse. Therefore, the ability to take a casual walk around the entire building, with my hands naturally in my pockets (but having a good firing grip on my J frame) was well worth it to me last night.
     
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  17. jim goose

    jim goose "The Goose"

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    I’m going to grab a j frame soon.

    I want it for pocket carry. Hand on the gun in the coat pocket, or hoodie etc. that’s a big advantage when trouble approaches over any belt carry.

    I see my edc as a up close and retreating weapon after a couple of shots.


    View: https://youtu.be/61BbBH5KUio
     
  18. ChuteTheMall

    ChuteTheMall Wallbuilder and Weapon Bearer

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    Cops are paid to pursue and apprehend, citizens can retreat and call 911.
     
  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    And that changes the number of justifiable homicides by private citizens actually recorded and reported ... how?

    Granted, on-duty peace officers typically have a different set of circumstances than private citizens when they're being attacked for being cops and engaged in their jobs. Ditto off-duty peace officers who decide to invoke their status and take action when they on-view a serious crime in-progress.

    Yep, and some jurisdictions have statutes that require private citizens to attempt to escape and leave before the use of deadly force is considered justified.



    Yep, again, some of the private citizen uses of deadly force may initially be questioned as to legality and reported as a criminal offense, but then a grand jury may return a no true bill, or they're tried and acquitted. Those sort of "statistics" may get lost within the background noise and fail to be counted in some statistics. (No requirement, to my knowledge, for those instances where the individual's actions go from being considered for criminal charges and then being decided to have been justifiable and excusable. Dunno.)
     
  20. ChuteTheMall

    ChuteTheMall Wallbuilder and Weapon Bearer

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    In a free country, no intelligent person would choose to live in such a place.