Is 5 shots enough? Part II

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by TheDreadnought, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. MAG40 Student

    MAG40 Student Silver Member

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    I don't know if everyone saw this recent post in GATE Self-Defense. I've taken the liberty of pasting into Mas' reply links to the incidents he mentions.

    FWIW, I read Ed Mireles' book on the FBI shootout. It's $20 well spent.

    Stay safe, everyone.


    https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/reload-in-civilian-defensive-shooting.1805584/

    Wednesday at 5:22 PM
    #1

    BBMW
    Joined: Dec 3, 2005
    Mas,

    Once again I call upon your massive experience in dealing with defensive shooting scenarios.

    In a civilian defensive shooting, have you ever heard of a situation where the civilian defender had to perform a reload (and for extra credit, did the reload get successfully done)?

    What brought this up was a video by John Correa (the "Active Self Protection" guy.) He said that in thousands of videos of defensive shooting he's watched, no civilian (in this case meaning non-LE), ever had to perform a reload. This was in the context of saying that because of this, he didn't feel the need to carry a reload magazine.

    So that brings up the question. Have you ever heard of a reload by a civilian self defense shooter actually happening.

    Thanks


    Wednesday at 6:00 PM
    #2

    [​IMG]
    Mas Ayoob KoolAidAntidoteModerator
    Joined: Nov 6, 2005
    Yes, Google the Harry Beckwith Incident in Micanopy, FL. (https://www.ar15.com/forums/general...ent___Florida_High_Volume_Shootout/5-1637989/)

    There are a number of cases where citizens have had to resort to multiple guns when the first one ran dry, same principle. Google the shootings of Lance Thomas in Los Angeles (https://www.usacarry.com/lessons-from-modern-day-gunfighter/) and the shootout at the Beverly Hills Jewelers in Richmond, VA come to mind (https://www.defensivecarry.com/foru...chmond-jewelry-store-shootout-blast-past.html). You can access all of them through Google.

    I agree with John that reloads are uncommon in self-defense shootings involving civilians, but they do happen. Whenever you look at a police shooting that required reloads -- the FBI incident in Miami in 1986 (https://www.amazon.com/Miami-Firefight-Minutes-Changed-Bureau/dp/0999510304), the Tim Gramins incident in Skokie, IL (https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/) -- remember that each of these started with criminals who preyed on citizens before they engaged police. Homicidal criminals don't seem to care much whether you have a badge or not when they attempt to murder you.

    Best,
    Mas
     
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  2. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    There's always a 'balance of potential factors' to be carefully considered when it comes to any particular individual's situation. (Real or perceived, it's still there. ;) )

    While on-board ammunition capacity and a potential need to reload is certainly an important factor to consider, the trick is to figure out if there are other more critical factors that deserve more attention and higher placement on someone's personal 'list' of considerations.

    An inability to recognize what may be an 'acceptable' level of ability to run a particular gun at speed, especially controllably and accurately, for example. Experiencing more misses than hits may not be a type of problem you may hope to be able to solve by just throwing more rounds at the underlying problem.

    My background in the martial arts always prompts me to look at ammunition capacity considerations the same way as having the strength and wherewithal to throw flurries of punches and kicks at an attacker. If the multiple numbers of punches and kicks are poorly done, and aren't effectively placed, hoping to rely upon their sheer numbers may not solve the problem I'm facing.

    Capacity - and caliber - are certainly influences and factors worth considering, but they may not be as high on the 'ultimate' list of critical factors as some folks may wish to think (or depend upon when their life may be at stake).

    Practical assessments and relevant decisions are sometimes a bit less simple and as easily addressed as we might wish. ;)

    Thanks for including the response from Mas, BTW.
     

  3. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday CLM

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    Good enough for me. Statistically, there is no real practical need for a civi to carry a bunch of mags.
     
  4. 1canvas

    1canvas

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    Going from uncommon to no practical need is a bit of a jump.
     
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  5. fredj338

    fredj338

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    One spare mag is not a bunch & 10rds in one mag is double in a 5 shot snub. 5 will always be enough, until it is not.
     
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  6. BBMW

    BBMW

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    The problem with that line of thinking is that you have to decide how much is enough before the fact and live (or die) by the consequences of that decision.

     
  7. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    Is 5 enough when you're being charged by a billion Chinese Corona Virus zombies?
     
  8. bdcochran

    bdcochran

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    True. People have been jawing (repeating gun magazine articles instead of thinking things through) about bullet size, stopping power, magazine capacity, caliber for years. They would rather buy another gun for say $500 than ever spend a dime on training by a guy who will teach a person how to shoot accurately while walking/running/backing away. They will calmly go to a shooting range only if the weather is acceptable and shoot only at known distances. They will shoot all Saturday morning without understanding that most gunfights are over in seconds. They will never be doing any shooting at night or in subdued lighting on an indoor range.
     
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  9. fredj338

    fredj338

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    We have a night idpa match once a year & get several shooter that have never fired a weapon @ night yet happily carry it thinking they are gtg in a fight that will likely happen at night. Training & dynamic practice are everything in a fight IMO. Caliber & even round count takes a second seat BUT, rather have too much gun than too little gun, as we will rarely get to pick our fight.
     
  10. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Like people buying high performance cars and bikes and thinking it makes them better drivers.

    There's always the pride-of-ownership thing to be appreciated, sure, but then there's the fallacy and danger of someone thinking that owning better gear suddenly makes them better qualified, skilled and mentally prepared to face difficult challenges. There's often a modicum of truth to the over-simplified saying of how amateurs talk gear and professionals talk tactics.

    Even 'professionals' (meaning people required to be armed as part of the job) can become complacent and lackadaisical about maintaining their training, though, let alone interested of taking advantage of acquiring further training which isn't absolutely mandated, with attendance being required upon threat of disciplinary action.

    People, doing what people often do.
     
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  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    A recent calf injury had me thinking about this thread. Most of us say our ccw is to remove ourselves from danger. While I agree, run first isn't always an option. Right now I can barely walk much less move dynamically. So if attacked, my first response is fight, not run & having more than 5 might just be the diff for mobility challenged shooters. The same would go if I were with someone that had an injury or just not able to move quickly like someone older with a cane or in a wheelchair. Just a thought.
     
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  12. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    I don't know. My gun isn't to remove me from danger. It is to defend myself if I can't remove myself from danger. Mobility issues do make the odds of not being able to remove oneself from danger go up, tho. So, if the number of rounds you carry is based on the odds of needing to use your firearm in general rather than the odds of needing more than x number of rounds to eliminate the threat, then maybe more rounds would be a consideration for the mobility impaired. If one feels that x rounds is generally enough for any likely encounter, then I don't see why mobility issues would increase that number.
     
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  13. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Not sure I even understand this? Your ability to fight is totally diff if you can move vs fight in place.
     
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  14. Trucker3573

    Trucker3573

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    Who knows? I mean you most likely will never need your gun at all. However if you do five is enough....uh until it isn’t. All that can really be said.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  15. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    Yeah, not too many instances of a civilian having to use a gun require a lot of running around. And the bottom line is you have to hit the target. I just don't see how more rounds is going to be helpful unless you plan to miss a lot. I guess I just don't understand the scenario you're planning for.
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Simple scenario; mobility challenged shooter, cant run or move to cover, not even a small side step, fight in place. Your attacker IS 100% mobile, you may very well miss more than you hit or at least not get good COM hits because of his mobility & your lack of. Seems pretty straight forward?
    Even if you subscribe to the 3rds in 3y in 3sec, that attack is not necessarily against a mobility challenged shooter. A 5rd dump at contact may be very appropriate if you can not move to avoid an attack. Then having extra rds seems very desirable??
    Just food for thought, not for an argument. Many will say their 5rds is enough because they will run away, not fight. My point is many can not move away from their potential fight. Bad guys are good at picking victims they are pretty sure they can take. A person with a cane or walking with a limp, etc.
     
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  17. BBMW

    BBMW

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    You're correct, but really, they're separate issues. A guy with good training and practice will be more effective with a five round snubbie than someone with no training and limited practice, but in a lot of scenarios, he still likely to be at a deficit given the type of attack (think multiple attackers.) If he's more effective with five rounds, he's going to be even more effective, and have more options, with eleven.

     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  18. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    If you are talking about robbers/muggers, the physical prowess of the victim is typically a minor element not a major one. There are plenty of conditions which can easily overcome the desire to prey on easy targets.
     
  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Well yes, obvious things like time & place but as a rule, bad guys don't go after people that look like they can handle themselves. Predators don't like being injured, man or beast.
     
  20. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    as a rule.. nobody likes being injured. What I am trying to convey is that although a criminals desire to select a presumably "easy" or less "risky" target does exist, it is generally subordinate to other issues at hand.

    To say that as a rule .. bad guys don't go after people that look like they can handle themselves, is flat out wrong in my experience dealing with criminals.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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