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Because that way you can trace all guns found to be used in crimes back to the person who illegaly sold it to a criminal.
having been in LE for over 20 years and used the ATF for traces i can tell you that 99% are stolen. The rest are generally straw purchases and I have yet to see a straw purchaser prosecuted
 

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Gee if there were only an amendment that could prevent a tyrannical government from just doing whatever it wants...
You mean the second amendment of the bill of rights? The Left has been trying to get around it for years and if Biden-Harris are elected and there';s a coat-tail effect and we lose both the house and senate, and they pack teh court, the second amendment will be nullified and we will live under one-party rule.

There's more than gun rights at stake in this election.
 

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For what its worth, I do not believe that Biden will get elected. I posted something to that effect in another thread. Republicans and Democrats both will vote for their party, there is no changing that. The common sense middle should vote Republican this election, since the Democrats have nothing but burning and looting going for them.
As for the Democrats taking away gun rights if they were to get into power, how exactly are they going to accomplish that? Presidential decree is not exactly going to accomplish that. That is just paranoid fear mongering, there will not be a 2/3 advantage (in my lifetime anyways).
As for moving out into the country, not really an option for everyone.
As for stolen guns, if everyone did an acceptable job of protecting their guns (i.e. gun safes), then they would not fall into criminals hands (and I am going to guess that a good percentage of those guns were really not stolen).
And if your underage children went out and harmed someone with your gun, then you should absolutely be held accountable, since you did not prevent them from accessing your guns.
Now let us talk about 80% receivers, lowers, whatever you want to call them. The reason most people want them, is that either they are criminals or delusional paranoids, who are afraid that the government is going to take their guns away from them after they repeal the 2nd Amendment. Following that logic, these are not "good Americans", but criminals. The government gave us the right to own guns, which makes it legal. If they were to decide that it is no longer legal, then anyone with a hidden gun is ipso facto a criminal. Therein lies the hypocricy of these people, I deserve this because it is stated in the constitution. But if the law ever changed, then I am not giving up my guns, because I should have them no matter what the law says.
 

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As for the Democrats taking away gun rights if they were to get into power, how exactly are they going to accomplish that? Presidential decree is not exactly going to accomplish that. That is just paranoid fear mongering, there will not be a 2/3 advantage (in my lifetime anyways).
It happened in 1994. Thankfully, there was a sunset clause in the bill. Again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Now let us talk about 80% receivers, lowers, whatever you want to call them. The reason most people want them, is that either they are criminals or delusional paranoids, who are afraid that the government is going to take their guns away from them after they repeal the 2nd Amendment.
Since you ignored my question the first time, how many firearms made from 80% receivers were used in crimes or found in the possession of criminals last year?
 

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Pharaoh
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The government gave us the right to own guns, which makes it legal.
Fundamental misunderstanding of what being American is.

The government didn't "give us the right".

The government is limited BY THE PEOPLE in the power and authority that the government has. The government is a government of consent OF THE PEOPLE.

Let us go back to the founding of the nation. People who believe in the USA and what it stands for understand what I am about to copy:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

The simple fact (and this is not a truth, it is a fact based upon what you posted that is quoted) that you dont understand this basic premise of the USA is very sad. And many people believe just like you which is very scary.

Authoritarian governments "give people rights"

Seriously think about your positions and way of thinking. The go read this document

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript

Maybe you will learn why so many people gave their blood and lives for an ideal you are willing to cast away...
 

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Now let us talk about 80% receivers, lowers, whatever you want to call them. The reason most people want them, is that either they are criminals or delusional paranoids, who are afraid that the government is going to take their guns away from them after they repeal the 2nd Amendment. Following that logic, these are not "good Americans", but criminals. The government gave us the right to own guns, which makes it legal. If they were to decide that it is no longer legal, then anyone with a hidden gun is ipso facto a criminal. Therein lies the hypocricy of these people, I deserve this because it is stated in the constitution. But if the law ever changed, then I am not giving up my guns, because I should have them no matter what the law says.
I'm GENUINELY curious what data you have to support the 'logic' highlighted above in bold. How do you know why most people want them?

Oh, and the government doesn't GIVE us rights. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding as to what exactly the word 'right' means.

-Pat
 

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For what its worth, I do not believe that Biden will get elected. I posted something to that effect in another thread. Republicans and Democrats both will vote for their party, there is no changing that. The common sense middle should vote Republican this election, since the Democrats have nothing but burning and looting going for them.
As for the Democrats taking away gun rights if they were to get into power, how exactly are they going to accomplish that? Presidential decree is not exactly going to accomplish that. That is just paranoid fear mongering, there will not be a 2/3 advantage (in my lifetime anyways).
As for moving out into the country, not really an option for everyone.
As for stolen guns, if everyone did an acceptable job of protecting their guns (i.e. gun safes), then they would not fall into criminals hands (and I am going to guess that a good percentage of those guns were really not stolen).
And if your underage children went out and harmed someone with your gun, then you should absolutely be held accountable, since you did not prevent them from accessing your guns.
Now let us talk about 80% receivers, lowers, whatever you want to call them. The reason most people want them, is that either they are criminals or delusional paranoids, who are afraid that the government is going to take their guns away from them after they repeal the 2nd Amendment. Following that logic, these are not "good Americans", but criminals. The government gave us the right to own guns, which makes it legal. If they were to decide that it is no longer legal, then anyone with a hidden gun is ipso facto a criminal. Therein lies the hypocricy of these people, I deserve this because it is stated in the constitution. But if the law ever changed, then I am not giving up my guns, because I should have them no matter what the law says.
A few counter points.

The US is found under the premise of preexisting rights. The government does not give us rights.

The US constituition is a system of limited government , vs. absolute monarchy or today totalitarian socialist state.

The constitution and the bill of rights limit government infringement of the citizens rights.

Gun laws purpose and affect as described is your opinion. Others do not agree.

Good example
Reason or motive to own any type including "80 percent" does not imply criminal intent.

Assumption that the democrat party will not or cannot infringe on our rights to keep and bear arms is detached from real world experience.

Look to states such a CA NY NJ and to lesser degree all others states. Look to VA this year.

Look to all the federal laws and regulations.

This election and for the near term, if someone cares to keep any fed or state government from further infringing on our Second Amendment, the voter need to vote Republican.

Prediction
The premise that registered democrats will not cross over to vote MAGA is also unlikely. I day many will.

Michigan 2016 is a good example.

2020
View some 2020 MAGA peaceful protest video of those waiting, such as Right Side Broadcasting will show many democrats who are voting for President Trump.

Some points to consider.
 

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Since you ignored my question the first time, how many firearms made from 80% receivers were used in crimes or found in the possession of criminals last year?
I cannot give you one single instance where an 80% receiver was used in a crime. But I have yet to hear why they are so important to you. Why are you not willing to spell it out for me? You are not giving me one good reason why they should exist. Please do not launch into a silly rhetoric over percentages and pieces of aluminum or plastic. Straight up, why should 80% receivers exist?

A few counter points.

The US is found under the premise of preexisting rights. The government does not give us rights.

The US constituition is a system of limited government , vs. absolute monarchy or today totalitarian socialist state.

The constitution and the bill of rights limit government infringement of the citizens rights.

Gun laws purpose and affect as described is your opinion. Others do not agree.

Good example
Reason or motive to own any type including "80 percent" does not imply criminal intent.

Assumption that the democrat party will not or cannot infringe on our rights to keep and bear arms is detached from real world experience.

Look to states such a CA NY NJ and to lesser degree all others states. Look to VA this year.

Look to all the federal laws and regulations.

This election and for the near term, if someone cares to keep any fed or state government from further infringing on our Second Amendment, the voter need to vote Republican.

Prediction
The premise that registered democrats will not cross over to vote MAGA is also unlikely. I day many will.

Michigan 2016 is a good example.

2020
View some 2020 MAGA peaceful protest video of those waiting, such as Right Side Broadcasting will show many democrats who are voting for President Trump.

Some points to consider.
Many valid points, I will have to take time to consider the implications. Sincerely, thanks for posting.

I will watch later today when I have the time and peace and quiet to pay attention.

But, let me bring something else up here, since there are intelligent responses forthcoming. Again, this is not to be contradictory or antagonistic, just looking for discourse and explanation. The 2nd reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Would well regulated not mean organized and/or trained? In the terms of the Founding Fathers, this was meant for essentially a home based army, due to the fact that the Founding Fathers did not trust/believe in a standing military. Without the well regulated part, does it not negate the following wording? Or am I misunderstanding "well regulated Militia"?
 

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I cannot give you one single instance where an 80% receiver was used in a crime. But I have yet to hear why they are so important to you. Why are you not willing to spell it out for me? You are not giving me one good reason why they should exist.
I never said they were important to me. I don't even own any. The reality is that people like to build things and there doesn't have to be a nefarious reason to do so. They should be able to do it without government harassment. You claim only criminals would want to build guns with them and yet you have no evidence showing that they are. Your supposition could be considered paranoid delusional.

The best reason for them to exist is to remind the government to mind its own business. You are free to live your life as a lemming, but not everyone wishes to.
 

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I cannot give you one single instance where an 80% receiver was used in a crime. But I have yet to hear why they are so important to you. Why are you not willing to spell it out for me? You are not giving me one good reason why they should exist. Please do not launch into a silly rhetoric over percentages and pieces of aluminum or plastic. Straight up, why should 80% receivers exist?



Many valid points, I will have to take time to consider the implications. Sincerely, thanks for posting.



I will watch later today when I have the time and peace and quiet to pay attention.

But, let me bring something else up here, since there are intelligent responses forthcoming. Again, this is not to be contradictory or antagonistic, just looking for discourse and explanation. The 2nd reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Would well regulated not mean organized and/or trained? In the terms of the Founding Fathers, this was meant for essentially a home based army, due to the fact that the Founding Fathers did not trust/believe in a standing military. Without the well regulated part, does it not negate the following wording? Or am I misunderstanding "well regulated Militia"?
 

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Without the well regulated part, does it not negate the following wording? Or am I misunderstanding "well regulated Militia"?
No, it doesn't. Yes, you are. Watch the Penn video above.
 
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I cannot give you one single instance where an 80% receiver was used in a crime. But I have yet to hear why they are so important to you. Why are you not willing to spell it out for me? You are not giving me one good reason why they should exist. Please do not launch into a silly rhetoric over percentages and pieces of aluminum or plastic. Straight up, why should 80% receivers exist?
Sorry, dude - you're the one looking to ban something, because, apparently, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM. You started out by saying that most people who want them are criminals or delusional paranoids (I asked what you based that conclusion on, seeing as how you earlier purported to use logic in your arguments but you've not answered my question); now, when pressed for any examples of firearms made from 80% lowers being used in crimes you admit that you cannot provide one.

YOU'RE the one calling to ban something. It's on YOU to justify why they should be banned, not on us to justify their existence. Straight up, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY EXIST???

-Pat
 

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Sorry, dude - you're the one looking to ban something, because, apparently, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM. You started out by saying that most people who want them are criminals or delusional paranoids (I asked what you based that conclusion on, seeing as how you earlier purported to use logic in your arguments but you've not answered my question); now, when pressed for any examples of firearms made from 80% lowers being used in crimes you admit that you cannot provide one.

YOU'RE the one calling to ban something. It's on YOU to justify why they should be banned, not on us to justify their existence. Straight up, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY EXIST???

-Pat
Actually, in a typical debate it would now be on you to prove to me that no 80% receiver was ever used in a crime.
 

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Pharaoh
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Why do people need 500+ hp cars? There is no need for them unless a person intends to commit crimes on the streets as a car with 150hp (or even less) will exceed the speed limit anywhere in the USA.

Why do people spend tons of money and time building running model engines?

Why do people need drones with high resolution cameras? The only people who want them are pedophiles that wants to spy on teenage girls in their bedrooms.

The list could go on and on why people pursue a hobby... and guess what... it probably isnt nefarious.
 
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Actually, in a typical debate it would now be on you to prove to me that no 80% receiver was ever used in a crime.
No, it is on you to prove aliens don't exist. Aliens are the ones who deliver "80% receivers."
 

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Khufu,
how about anything that can "reasonably" be expected to be turned into a gun. There is no good reason for 80% frames, unless you are talking about 1911's or the like, where people want to turn something into a handcrafted piece (which should have a serial number as well). Buying a P80 and finishing it with a template really has no benefit over buying a completed finished lower, other than it not being registered. What benefits do you see? Please explain.
As far as voting is concerned, I absolutely believe that you should have to have a valid ID and if voting by mail, then it should be done well in advance with proof of ID, so every vote can be verified, before the actual elections.
And as far as ammunition or parts thereof (primers, powder), most if not all states require ID so as not to sell to minors.
Background checks are not required for free speech, since it is not illegal for a felon to voice his opinion. Without background checks, how would you suggest we prevent people who are not legaly allowed to own guns from purchasing them?

Railfancwb,
automobiles are hard to conceal in your pants and therefore are not to be compared to guns.
It is childish to compare the two, but it does require a license plate and a valid drivers license to operate them on public roads. So realistically, they are not the free for all you suggest. And if you run afoul of the law, you loose the right to operate one. But yes, I do believe that all gun sales should pass a background check, whether through a licensed dealer, a police/sheriff station, or some other legal means.
1). Operating a motor vehicle is a PRIVILEGE granted by a state, not a right. Hence a community’s right to pass a law disallowing motor vehicles. There are several.
2). Just about everything you covered in your pists is already covered by a law, rarely prosecuted though. Perhaps concentrating on pressuring prosecutors to actually use and prosecute existing laws already on the books would be in order?
 

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Actually, in a typical debate it would now be on you to prove to me that no 80% receiver was ever used in a crime.
No, sorry, it doesn't work that way. You made a claim that 80% lowers shouldn't be sold because the typical buyers are criminals and delusional paranoids. You've yet to provide a shred of evidence that it's true, and now want me to prove you wrong. No, Mr. Logic - you need to support your position - you don't get to make ridiculous claims then fold your arms and say "prove me wrong!!!"

-Pat
 
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Really? Then how do you account for this?

View attachment 838474 View attachment 838474

Agonizer, thank you for your very eloquent response. It is refreshing to see someone with such an amazing grasp of the english language express his opinion. It does seem that your favorite word is "Trool". Is that the reason you have one as your Avatar?

George Kaplan, I too would love to own a machine gun, my choice would be an Amercan 180 (and yeah, I am aware it is only a .22, however it will penetrate bulletproof glass better that a .223 or a .44 Magnum and I would not have to worry so much about ammo cost). However, if everyone could buy one of those bad boys by mail (or in todays environment, the internet), I might want to don body armor everytime I left my house to go downtown.

Scott1970, I absolutely agree that we need more control over criminals as well, rather than having prisons with revolving doors. Legal leniency is one of the things I abhor and I truly believe in Capital Punishment. If you have multiple violent felonies on your record, why would you ever be allowed out of prison again. If you committed first degree murder, your ass belongs in Old Sparky. But to me, making it harder for criminals not to be able to get their hands on a gun is analogous to not leaving your car unlocked and idling with the keys in it. I would rather it be more difficult for criminals to access guns and being able to track them easily to whomever supplied them.
Grasp of the English language? You didn't even spell "troll" correctly:

"It does seem that your favorite word is "Trool". Is that the reason you have one as your Avatar?"

You are a lying leftwing troll, using the same tired arguments they have used for years. You can't even come up with an original thought.
 
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