Intangibles of .45ACP ?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by ChrisD46, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. KS-G21-Fan

    KS-G21-Fan

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    I actually agree with most of this. Lighter recoil is indeed easier to manage. Range races have a bad habit of making people outrun their own neurological ooda loop, though. But back to the point, the value proposition this inevitably leads to is the least amount of recoil but technically meets the FBI 4 layer of denim gel test. I'm not entirely convinced that's the best method, but at least is A method.
     
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  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Most LEO dont shoot. They shoot their qual, 1-4x a year, thats it. There is zero chance you will control a plastic, fantastic in 45 acp shooting 50-200rds a month much less a year. So the 9mm is making a comeback in with LEA due to better bullets. After all, in the 3 major service caliber, there really isnt much diff in energy penetration or expanded bullets. So it comes down to how many can I land on my target in the shortest period of time. Add in the unskilled shooter now also has more rds to try & get his/her hits with, bonus.
     
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  3. LouisianaGunSlinger

    LouisianaGunSlinger

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    The home brewed mathematical speculation snake-oil-salesman psuedo-science above is a prime example of why old myths persist, despite evidence completely contradicting them. What Courtney suggests has never been shown to actually occur with any load in the common service pistol calibers. Even a casual glance at the professionally-conducted ballistics gelatin tests and models of autopsy reports I linked earlier in this thread shows that. The FBI and modern law enforcement agencies (even increasingly the DoD, amazingly) discard Courney's, and Marshall & Sanow's "research" as complete bunk. Courtney's entire "theory" rests upon false conclusions come to by Marshall & Sanow's fundamentally flawed and amatuer "data-gathering". Every modern ballistician who is hired by law enforcement agencies to perform testing, and every trauma surgeon with extensive experience with gunshot wounds will tell you that none of the standard service pistol calibers show permanent damage imparted by the temporary cavity. Even at the end of that paper, Courtney is wise enough not to claim what the paper suggests as fact, and merely suggests basically keeping it in mind when evaluating test results.

    This "spectrum" is quite large, and a hundred or so more feet per second added to an already slow and anemic pistol caliber does not magically advance it far enough along in the "spectrum" to show any of the effects consistent with temporary cavities causing actual damage in tissue. There is no "shock" or some unseen force causing damage remotely with 9mm, .40, or .45, the human body is more than capable enough to take the measly amount of energy and force imparted by service pistol calibers going through flesh. The velocities aren't anywhere even remotely close to being able to do what is being claimed above. Comparing service pistol calibers' abilities to stop over one another is like gnomes having a height measuring contest. They're all midgets and their differences are nuanced.

    As the testing and data in the posts and links above shows, and as every major law enforcement agency has arrived to in conclusion, is that the only reliable method of wounding the standard service pistol calibers produce is what the projectile itself does, ie., ripping, tearing, and crushing tissue. This is why loads with sharp edges or pronounced shoulders like the (now outdated) Black Talons, or the Remington Golden Sabers, or now the HST, have historically been so well regarded for the wound cavities they produce... not because of some speculative mathematics exercises based off of the research of snake oil salesmen.

    We are in an era where we don't have to rely on speculative theories without any real-world data to draw conclusions about what the standard service pistol calibers do. We have over 2 decades of OIS incidents and their results with modern projectile and propellant technology to make accurate observations using modern, refined scientific methods. Any of the magical abilities believed in above are the result of willful ignorance and/or the investment of ego into one's choice of handgun caliber.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
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  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    The FBI's Heavy Clothing test protocol (unless it's changed recently) was 4 layers of:
    cotton t-shirt material (~5.25 oz/yard, 48 threads per inch); cotton material (~3.5 oz/yard, 80 threads per inch); Malden Mills Polartec 200 fleece; cotton denim (~14.4 oz/yard, 50 threads per inch).

    Basically, layered clothing material simulating a cotton T-shirt, cotton shirt, a layer of fleece and a single layer of denim.

    The 4 Layer Denim test was jointly developed by Duncan MacPherson and the California Highway Patrol, and adopted by the IWBA.
     
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  5. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    Wasn't looking for a solution.
     
  6. BFN

    BFN

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    The HST 45 JHP expanded to .85 has a 94% larger frontal surface area than an HST 9 mm JHP expanded to .61.

    The math is the area within a circle = pi x radius squared.
    .85 diameter x .5 = .425 radius. 3.1416 (.425 x .425) = .5675 area
    .61 diameter x .5 = .305 radius. 3.1416 (.305 x .305) = .2922 area

    .5675/.2922 = 1.942. The 45 expanded has 94.2% greater surface area than the expanded 9mm.

    The diameter difference only measures a line from point to point. The frontal surface area is a more accurate measure of size difference because that is what is going through a torso.

    That is why statements like "extra couple hundredths of an inch of expanded diameter" greatly understate the size difference. It is the surface area that is important, not a point to point line measurement.
     
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  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    When you stack different size coins (dime, penny, nickel and quarter) the relative size differences may not change by the "numbers", but the importance of some of the "close" differences can seem less dramatic ... and especially so when you compare it against a space the size of, say, an anatomical COM.

    Also, when you measure the radius of the expanded bullet diameter, are you measuring both the smallest and the largest spots around the expanded bullet (meaning also at the base of, and between, the separated jacket cuts, and not just the widest outer diameter) to get the numbers for the calculations? Averaging them for the measurements of the individual bullets? Taking the largest radius?

    Might as well think about the yaw factor, meaning the bullet length, too. Also take into consideration the +/- half a turn (rotation twist) that may occur, presuming impacting a bony structure might not cause deflection and change the length of "straight" wound track path.

    The precision and utility of the math isn't necessarily going to be reflected in the causality of any particular ballistic effect outside of the gel block (which preserves the pretty bullets).

    Certainly it can be useful to know, especially if you're asking engineers to design bullets tailored to produce something that adheres to those numbers after a violent expansion in a target medium, but correlation still won't imply (let alone guarantee) causality when it comes to ballistic effect.

    It's possible to overthink these things if just looking at one side of "the question", which is why the results observed in both the lab and the street provide a working context.

    Gaining mastery of crunching the numbers of expansion and theoretical GSW wound paths and the temporary wound cavity (I almost wrote "mythical" as an adjective ;) ) won't improve judgment and skillset in running the trigger.

    Scientists can easily give us the pure numbers, but then we've got to be able to make everything work to practical effect when the rubber meets the road.
     
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  8. OttoLoader

    OttoLoader

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    Just checked this thread. Page 19.
    Not going back to back post. Just some thoughts upon reading all 19 pages.

    Characteristic and real world performance.
    The 9 mm 147 gr subsonic was mentioned many times as the most effective.
    My observation right away was the greater mass 147 vs 124 or 115 result in greater momentum at the terminal ballistic speed. So heavy for caliber may be one of the parameters the ammo engineers use in development of the projectile.
    Expansion and no separation.
    Apparently during the last 20 yrs the engineers have developed designs that satisfy the necessary combination of parameters to assure depth and expansion without separation.
    Maybe more attention and resources are applied to 9mm vs 45 ACP due to customer (LE organization) need and requirements. All moving toward the direction of 9mm.
    Shootability. It has been mentioned that a greater portion of the LE population can more readily handle the 9mm than the 45 ACP. This is yet another motive for manufacturers to spend more resources developing better or improved 9mm.

    Comparing studies and publications from years ago may be good for trends. However ammunition technology , compter analysis codes and high speed photography have improved so actual legacy ammo and evaluation techniques have been eclipsed by the current technology.
    For those reasons the caliber comparison is of interest, but as more effort and resources apparently is applied to the 9 mm. Terminal ballistic results of current 9 mm should be expected to be similar to 45 ACP.
    Practical results count so more hits quicker and more rounds available for the 9mm seem to give the 9mm the edge for practical application.
    Getting back to momentum associated with heavy for caliber projectiles.
    The heavier projectiles apparently would be better at breaking bone, or dealing with hitting some hard object, say something in the pocket. But apparently this is not a dominant consideration.

    I like my .45 but I think I will test out some 147 gr 9mm in my Glock 26.
     
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  9. fredj338

    fredj338

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    If you like being a math geek, ok, but reality, its a fricking hole. The Surface area is not punching the hole, the expanded dia is. That is the tissue being crushed, that is about 40% more with the expanded dia given.
    Which again is good, but only if you can deliver one faster than I can two or even three 9mm. Love the 45, but not in most edc size guns. Then there is the whole round count thing. Todays good jhp make small 9mm very viable ccw.
     
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  10. Agonizer

    Agonizer .

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    I read all 19 pages.

    Do I get some kind of award?

    I carry a Sig P365. I have selected Winchester Ranger RA9T 147grn as the apparently best of the 9mm.

    I have A Shield 45 with RA45T, which I feel is slightly superior, but I like the higher capacity Sig, which is also smaller, lighter, and easier to carry.

    This thread has given me increased confidence in the 9mm.

    My two cents.
     
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  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Honestly, I would carry any of the service calibers with good jhp & not feel under gunned. It always comes down to what you shoot best. If that is a pocket 9mm, you are well served. I really like the 365, just wish I could easily get one out here. Not on our approved list.:steamed:
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  12. ChrisD46

    ChrisD46

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    *What .45 ACP ammo manufacturer makes a JHP .45 ACP in 230 gr. / 1150 FPS ?
     
  13. rfd339

    rfd339 Silver Member

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    Glock 21 gen4 . Grip is very nice .
     
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  14. uofaengr

    uofaengr

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    Agreed that any of the service calibers will do and will likely get any two legged creature to stop whatever harmful activity they're doing.

    I'm also a fan of .45 ACP with a G21 as my longtime HD pistol, but for carry it's a G19 mainly due to the size (capacity is a bonus) and that I don't really have any issues with 9mm as it's occasionally a G43 if I need to go really light.
     
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  15. ChrisD46

    ChrisD46

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    *I have HST 124 gr. standard pressure for 9mm - however the HST 147gr. may be worth exploring as becoming dare I say much closer to .40 cal and .45 ACP real world performance ticking all the boxes in terms of adequate velocity , penetration depth (13" +) and expansion .
     
  16. KS-G21-Fan

    KS-G21-Fan

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  17. rock_castle

    rock_castle Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

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    This^
    Most of my guns are 9mm and i carry a P365 every day. However, if my only gun was a .40 or a .45 then a I would carry that and not worry about it. We are really splitting hairs here. All three of these calibers are solid CC/SD choices.
     
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  18. M 7

    M 7

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    Yes. We're calling it "The Agonizingly Tenacious Award". :D

    You see what I did there, yeah? ;)
     
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  19. teeceetx

    teeceetx

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    I have a G21 SF, and it is without a doubt the most satisfying gun I've ever shot. It is BIG and it is HEAVY. I find I am marksman-like accurate when shooting it (no, I'm no marksman). And indeed it is less loud than my G43. As far as stopping power, I find it a moot point, because if I have to shoot someone, I'll be firing far more than a single shot, regardless of which gun I use. But it is far too big and heavy to use as a carry gun.