Home > Practical Tactics > Carry Issues > Instances where 5 wasn't enough.

Instances where 5 wasn't enough.

  1. Anybody got a documented instance where a civilian lost a deadly encounter because five shots wasn't enough?
     
  2. Not directly, but Tom Givens has a pretty neat database of his 65 (known) students who've gotten into gunfights. You'll see plenty of them that used more than 5 to solve the problem. What would have happened if they didn't have those extra rounds is somewhat of a conjecture, but that's what inductive logic is for.
     
  3. The question is, was five enough but they kept shooting? I’ve always wondered how many clicks occur after the rounds are spent in a revolver during a self defense shooting
     
  4. Lucky Gunner has a vid "I might have been mistaken about pocket guns". Addresses civilian pistol needs versus service pistol needs.

    Claude Werner has studied this extensively for years.
     
  5. I know five can go pretty quickly (1+ second) in a dynamic situation for sure.
     
  6. If I read Tom Givens correctly, only three of sixty five lost. And only because they were not armed. Did I miss something?
     
  7. The main reason for the 5 shots not being enough is not making each shot count. I know easier said than done. Case in point.When I was a Detroit cop years ago,we would carry a total of 18 rounds(6 in our revolvers and 12 in a double ammo pouch). My partner and I responded to a store robbery in progress. As we were pulling up to the location,the bad guy was running out of the store and started firing at us. We exited our scout car and got behind the vehicle for cover. The bad guy ran across the main street and took cover behind a parked car and stared shooting across the street striking our vehicle. Now my partner returned fire and within a 10 minute time frame was out of ammunition and was asking me for some of mine.At this point I hadn't even fired a shot since there was no visible target to shoot at. About this time back up pulled up and 1 of the officers got a shotgun from his scout car and fired a round(00 buck) under the vehicle the bad guy was hiding behind striking the bad guy in the leg causing him to surrender(they call this skip shooting). Now my partner had fired a total of 18 rounds and the only thing he hit was several parked cars and maybe a house or two. This is what I mean when I say making each shot count. Like I said,easier said than done during the heat of a battle.
     
  8. Off topic, but what is a scout car?

    Auto correct for squad, or something else different?

    Just curious, thanks :)
     
  9. You missed the ones that needed more than 5 shots to win.
     
  10. I’d never heard the term, but first thing that came to mind was an unmarked to sneak up

    “Hey Pac-Man!!”

    6CDC72C2-1EAB-4AF1-A675-37A9114EB2D4.jpeg
     
  11. While not definitive, if you watch those "active self-protection" videos on youtube, the shots happen fast and close, and then over. I think the host of that channel says he's never seen a civilian reload.

    It seems people are either down and done, or are fleeing.

    I'm not saying a protracted shoot out can't happen, just that it must be pretty darn rare.
     
  12. Agreed. MOST times it’s someone wants something that they see you have. When you pull out the gun (that they didn’t see), they quickly decide they don’t want your (cellphone, car, wallet) bad enough to take some lead with it. I’d venture to guess a lot of the shots fired back from the bad guy are fired one handed while turned sideways and running away
     
  13. I guess so. How many?
     
  14. https://www.policemag.com/cop-slang/scout-car

    Also, apparently used by Detroit cops.
     
  15. You might not consider this a “loss,” but I chalk this up to “small caliber, small capacity and poor training” and is essentially a loss in my book. They got lucky and survived.



    I used to carry a 5 shot NAA Pug, but these days I feel better about a 12 round 9mm and training.
     
  16. GLOCK 17
     
  17. What makes you think 5 is enough? There are dozens of home invasion & personal attacks where people fired more than 5rds. Today we have multiple attackers, semiauto firearms, it isnt just a simple mugging by a thug with a pocket knife. 5rds goes really quick if your attacker presses the attack. Even if you land 5 good hits, a determined attacker may kill you before he himself dies. Ccw or leo, a fight is a fight.
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-ho...-injures-2-during-home-invasion-officials-say
     
  18. Here’s the thing

    A G19 or G17 holds more rounds than a snubbie, sure, but that’s not the point.

    Today’s modern service autos are easy to use, easy to be accurate with and very reliable. All of those are far more important than capacity (which I also wouldn’t trade off, but I digress).
     
  19. And my snubbies (and all my other revolvers) are also easy to use, easy to be accurate and very reliable.

    Not to mention very easy to find ammo that will feed reliably.
     
  20. A "Scout Car" is a term that was used for a marked Detroit Police Car, when I was growing up, nowadays the "Ebonics Language," is spoken in Detroit, so who knows what they are called as folks are running away from them.

    Hey jd, Patrolman Jim Annis was my dads best friend from the sixth precinct, oh the stories he could tell!
     
  21. What I have in my pistol is more than likely going to have to be enough. I have no delusions as to my ability to reload in a high stress situation. It might go smoothly and it might not. I do practice reloads but I don't TRAIN that way. I'm not sure how many of us actually do either.

    I'm not sure there would be any statistics on when the threat was stopped and the defender kept shooing using more than was necessary.

    Personally, I believe there is a huge difference between law enforcement using their weapons and me using mine in a self defense situation. They are there to protect and stop the subject from harming anyone in the area. I'm going to use my weapon to protect me and the ones I love long enough to stop the threat or leave the area. If that benefits others.....fantastic!....but I don't carry to protect other people.

    With that in mind do I think 5 rounds is enough? I do If I'm carrying my SP101.
     
  22. I guess it matters where the bullet lands?

    oswald.jpg
     
  23. That's quite the attack. 5 wannabe murderers with multiple guns. Defender fired dozens of rounds to drive them off.

    I get the sense that most CCW people don't even carry a gun at home. A snubby on you while watching American Idol on your couch is a good start. But in this case, an AR-15 stretched across your lap would be even better.
     
  24. I just carry a cell phone and call 911. At home I have a double barrel that I shoot in the air and they run. Biden told me to.
     
  25. I agree that reloading in a civilian encounter is unlikely to happen.

    But remember that most people are using semi-autos with at least 8 or 10 rounds when he says that. I rarely see the ultra tiny autos or revolvers with 6 or less in those videos.
     
  26. As I sit on the couch watching the news and posting on GT, I have a full sized .45 with 15 rounds on tap out of sight but within easy reach.

    My HD weapons are only full sized pistols or PCCs. All my compact and smaller pistols are used only for CC.
     
  27. and don't forget. That a "protracted shootout" is more likely to occur in a home invasion than a street encounter. If you have a full size for home defense, your odds of being in an encounter and needing something fullsize for carry instead of a compact are now tiny. Lightning strike Powerball sorta tiny.

    Look at a carry gun as insurance. Do you carry 10 billion dollars in insurance on yourself, probably not as the odds of needing that are tiny. You carry some "just in case" but you carry only the adequate minimal for your situation.

    People get way carried away over these things. Walter Mitty is alive and well in the carry gun camp.
     
  28. +1

    Not to deny the occasional exception when more is truly needed, but I believe there is a difference in training, mindset, and application when you start with fewer rounds.

    If you read closely the stories of those who were in extended gunfights, such as the often cited "Why One Cop Carries 14,500 Rounds" (OK, the decimal place may be off, but you know the one that always pops up in these discussions), a common theme is after the officer/defender has fired off almost all of his rounds, he will make some comment about needing to make the last ones "count". At that point, a more effective hit is usually delivered.

    So, why not make the first one "count"?

    Or, fire off 2-3 quick shots to center mass and then make the 4th one "count" if that wasn't immediately effective?

    Shouldn't every round count?

    When I was issued a S&W 681 w/ 18 rounds, my plan was to make the first 6 count because I didn't want to try and reload if someone was still shooting at me.
    As it turns out, I never needed to fire my gun as a cop.
    I've never needed to even draw a gun as a civilian.
    When I was at my agency, all the shootings across the whole department for the years I was there involved just a few rounds each. One went up to 6 rounds fired out of a semi auto.

    Of course, having said all that, I usually carry a small semiauto with an extra mag.

    If the incredibly unlikely need for me to have a gun occurs, maybe it will be the even more unlikely need for over 5 rounds. G43, Shield, LC9, XDS, P365, Hellcat, not to mention all the tiny .380s. Lots of small options that carry easily with a few extra rounds.

    ETA: but, I wouldn't look down on a j-frame, knowing that it would be more than enough, statistically speaking.
     
  29. Tom is quite a guy, humble and competent...his experiences with his students offers real-life shooting stats...it is also instructive to read about the small number of his students who did Not prevail during an armed encounter...in every instance, those students for whatever reason, were Not armed when hostilities ensued...bottom line...EDC everywhere you are legally allowed!
     
  30. I keep my Glock 43x with 10+1 rounds of 124gr Gold Dots +P on me all the time at home.

    I might carry the same or different guns out of the house for a variety of reasons, but at home that's usually the one I have on me. Before that, it was the Glock 26. Same 10+1.

    Gun on me is 24/7. If I go to a different room, the gun goes with me.

    But I understand the difficulty in doing that. There are a lot of days in a year, and a lot of hours in a day. Many different things you are doing in that time. So I think if someone has at least a snubby revolver on them, or a small .380, then that's great. Much better to have that .38 in your pocket, than a .45 in the safe.

    A lot of times these discussions get framed by what someone carries under a coat when they drive through "the bad part of town". I'm much more interested in what you carry in your robe at 2:30 am for that bathroom run followed by a look into the fridge for the leftover turkey leg.
     
  31. I should have been clearer in my question. I was speaking and asking about civilian CCW. Not police. Not military. Not home invasion.

    Anyone breaking into my home is going up against something greater than my CCW pistol.
     
  32. The number 1 reason for reloading is missing your target. In a world of multiple bad guys and increased violence, I don't wanna take that chance. Heck, carrying lite to me means 7rds of 9mm and a reload.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
     
  33. As I always say, any weapon is better than no weapon. I will always pick up my J-frame or Kimber 380 or my G43 when I leave the house. I just make sure they are loaded with something that meets or exceeds the FBI penetration/expansion standards.

    There is always a front snap kick to the knee.
     
  34. Unless you live in a giant turd bowl, your odds of needing a gun in self def is very small, home or street. Thats just the point. If you need a gun, you probably really need something you can fight with, in any given attack.
    It doesnt have to be a good nfight. I dont want to be relying on my 5shot to stop a close range assault by a 6ft 200# guy swinging a machette, as happened here a few months ago. Sure you might get lucky & land that precious head shot, but odds are you will need every one of those 5 shots, and maybe 3-4 more. The vast majority of people carry guns they rarely if ever shoot. It makes them feel good, safe, but they really arent ready for any fight that comes at them, Imo. Why I dont carry one as a bug, never as a primary.
     
  35. Oops
     
  36. Oops
     
  37. I dont see much diff, but to each their own. I assume my fight will violent, my attacker bigger & stronger, likely armed. I know I wont miss much, but I also know the human body can take massive damage before shutting down & that can take minutes not seconds.
    Again there are lots of instance where 5 shots wasnt enough but 8-9 was. You wont get your 5shot reloaded during a serious fight for your life. You might survive with just a few extra rds though.
     
  38. I am nuts on with a Glock 23 or HK P30. I am so so with a Walther PPS M2. Mid and full size pistols fit my hand. Snubs and subs don’t.
     
  39. ...or prevailed because they had six +. Probably plenty of cases. But for those who 'make every shot count', no problemo.;) I'd like to think I'll make every round count but my real-world experience is lacking, thank goodness.
     
  40. NYPD produces an annual report on firearms discharges for the previous year. It was called, in my day, SOP 9. This is a summary of every single incident, breaking them down by many factors for analysis.

    The following category may prove enlightening;

    SHOTS FIRED PER ADVERSARIAL INCIDENT BY ALL OFFICERS INVOLVED WITH FIVE OR LESS ROUNDS BEING DISCHARGED

    2007 68%

    2008 84%

    2009 90%

    2010 77%

    2011 69%

    2012 72%

    2013 73%

    2014 72%

    2015 65%

    2016 73%

    2017 65%


    Seeing as these are Police involved shootings, it would seem to follow that concealed carry events would meet or exceed those numbers in small round count events.
     
  41. One has to be a complete Moron to disagree with the Fact that having more rounds in a gunfight is better than only Five! Having said this, there are many gun people who carry a 6 + 1 or a five round Revolver for self protection and I am one of those people! I am 75 years old and I have carried both Revolvers and Semi Autos as Duty Weapons and for only Self Defense and at this stage of my life, I carry a Snub Nose 5 shot revolver, a G 43 6 + 1 or a LCP II. No more heavy hunks of Iron around my waist with extra mags for my self protection. I'm perfectly happy and confident with my set up to protect myself and I'm quite sure their are many gun guys like myself who feel the same way! Carry whatever makes you feel good, because I do!
     
  42. lol I live in Tulsa about a mile from where this happened and let me tell you those women were scared to death and I give them [emoji1303] at the effort they put out to get the pos behind bars. Just think how many dumbass people are running around with guns and have no clue what they will do when confronted! At least that’s my take on our constitutional carry crap. Oh and I want my money that I put out to get my license. Since all the idiots don’t have to pay! [emoji2959]



    -- "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ 2. The American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
     
  43. A few years ago, 5-7 or the like, a young mother was at home with the kiddos. She heard a ruckus and grabbed the 38 SP revolver and cell phone, rounded up the kids and they all hid in some sort of air intake or small room type place near or entering the attic. She calls hubby, who in turn calls 911. He and 911 listen to the entire event. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. If my memory is correct, they were there in good time, FWIW.
    BG opens the door and she puts 5 in him from close range and pretty good shots. That is all she had. BG breaks off attack and goes down stairs, get into car, and drives away. I read two accounts at this point. He was found about a mile away, one says deaded, the other says hurted. Either way mom stopped what may have been a tragic event.
    Now, she didn't "lose" the encounter. Fact is, it worked out as intended, but not quite the way it should have.
    I really don't care for the 38SP as a defensive round. It is anemic, over hyped, and comes in a revolver almost exclusively. It gains it's reputation from a time when there wasn't much better, or the better had fallen from favor for what ever reason.
    I would bet Dollars to doughnuts, that if asked the young lady in the above story would have opted for more ammo, given a choice. It happened in Georgia, IIRC but my head was on the ground for a long time during that wreck. Still, the account should be close.

    I know we have a lot of marksmen in GT, bit IIRC on average only about 10% of rounds fired make contact, any contact, with the intended target.
     
  44. Biden or Cheney lol http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/4cz3D8Yhyzcg8/giphy.gif



    -- "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ 2. The American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
     
  45. I really don’t see the benefit of looking for anecdotal evidence concerning rounds expended in a non-police gunfight unless it is to justify a particular belief. It doesn’t validate anything for a lot of reasons. First, there is no database of non-police shootings. Information comes from press reports and word of mouth. While police can administratively be compelled to provide detailed information to their agencies about shots fired, non-police cannot, and their best course of action is to shut up. Second, non-police shootings do not get the level or duration of media scrutiny that police shootings get, so the details are not vetted to the same extent as police shootings. Third, discounting police shootings as being somewhat different than non-police shootings glosses over some things. A person who decides he is not going to be taken by the police, and who shoots at the police, surely has no qualms about doing the same thing to non-police, including things like carjacking an escape vehicle, breaking and entering, and taking hostages, in addition to “everyday” crimes not tied to escaping or shooting at police. Why start the analysis by taking “that guy” totally out of the equation. Finally, it doesn’t take into account the person’s equipment and competence or incompetence, which factors into shots fired and shots not fired that should have been.
     
  46. It's hard to find documented instances of the sort discussed here because:

    1) Private citizens don't have to report their shootings the way that institutional shooters ( e.g., police) do.

    2) People who end up dead can't tell us what happened.
     
  47. Agreed. Most people carry guns as magic talisman and don’t train or practice. That’s like having an escape helicopter in case of SHTF and not knowing how to fly.

    Honestly, I don’t need a gun at all. But when going out, I think of the type of scenario I would like to be prepared for. I know from competition that shooting on the move and under stress is pretty difficult, so I want mechanical advantage on my side.

    Otherwise you could say, “Hey. I should just remove the sights off my gun because most self defense shootings don’t use their sights at those distances anyway!”

    If I’m going through the trouble of carrying a snubbie, a 380ACP is ballistically similar to 38 spl and flatter.

    That being said, I like a revolver from a contact standpoint so I often will carry an 8-shot 38/357.

    But if you take contact out of it and just talk about size and ballistics...

    I’d take an 11oz LCP with 7 round magazine over my 12oz 5 shot 340 PD. But realistically, both would be fine.
     
  48. You’ve got a mean wife?
     
  49. What about where more than five was needed to win?

    Anyway, yes there are plenty of stories out there.