Instances where 5 wasn't enough.

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Out West, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I forgot to mention an incident I learned of some years ago where an off-duty cop successfully used a 5-shot snub to stop 3 armed robbery suspects (with the first 5 rounds fired).

    Remember ... "There are eight million stories in the naked city". You can probably find something to agree and disagree with whatever you wished. ;)

    Train and practice. Practice some more. Then some more. Keep doing it.

    Might help. Probably won't hurt. ;)

    5 rounds might be "enough" ... and 30 rounds might not be
    "enough".
     
  2. Out West

    Out West

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    I'm not familiar with the author, but what he says rings true. Good points to think on. Thanks for the post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019

  3. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Perhaps this is a good time to segue into mentioning a practical snub revolver shooting drill, usually called some variation of 5X5 or 5X5X5 or 5X5X5X5. Basically, you fire five rounds in five seconds from five yards at a five inch circle. I started using it many years ago.

    Here's one online discussion of it.
    https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-5-x-5-shooting-drill-and-some-thoughts-on-training

    I started out doing it 2-handed, using mixed standard pressure and +P in one of my Airweight (+P capable) snubs.

    When that became consistently achievable, I changed over to do it 1-handed, close combat/hip, from 3yds. (Still 5 seconds into a group no larger than 5"). Then 4yds, and finally out to 5yds, 1-handed. Then I started reducing the time.

    Nowadays I like to do it cold and look to be able to run it 2-handed at 5yds in 2secs, and 1-handed at 3-4yds in 3secs. (Using +P and shooting 1-handed does tend to make the increased recoil more noticeable. ;) Also, 3-4yds shooting 1-handed from a low hip or in-front-of-the-belt-buckle grip position appeals to me from a practical perspective.)

    Now, a while ago I was working with a couple of guys, trying to get them to learn run a revolver drill to focus on their grip stability and DA trigger control. One of the other instructors wandered by to observe and he saw me doing the 5shots/5yds/2secs/5" drill using one of my M&P 340's (and +P loads). He's younger than me by more than 10 years, but he was around when we were still using revolvers ... and he likes them.

    He asked if he could try the drill using my lightweight snub, explaining he'd neglected practicing with his revolvers (and his own 640 snub) for too long, and it looked like an interesting drill. I loaded up the snub with some 125gr +P (I was using up some "recycled" assorted carry 125gr, 130gr & 135gr +P that day).

    He took a position at the 5yd line, holding the snub at a "low" ready and waited for my signal. He cut a nice approx 3" group in just at 2secs ... and smiled.

    The next time (different day) I saw him out on the firing line he was shooting a newly acquired "used" M64 .38SPL revolver he'd picked up, and was thoroughly enjoying himself.

    Good revolver skills are kind of like riding a bicycle. :) It helps to keep them practiced if you think you might have to ride a bike. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  4. Out West

    Out West

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    I'm going to try this one! They don't like rapid fire at the gun club. Probably won't be an issue for me. :(
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    That was the in-house paper that helped push the FBI into reconsidering their ballistics testing and duty caliber requirements.

    Urey Patrick and John Hall were (and remain) well respected FBI names in the LE firearms training field.

    The price has gone up on this 608 page book since it was authored by Hall and Patrick. It's probably most interesting and useful for working cops and LE trainers, although it does include a specific chapter on Wound Ballistics (pgs 79-95).

    https://cap-press.com/books/isbn/9781611636826/In-Defense-of-Self-and-Others-.-.-.-Third-Edition

    You can glance at the Table of Contents by using Amazon's LOOK INSIDE feature, and the similar feature on the link at the other website.

    https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Self-Others-Fallacies-Enforcements-ebook/dp/B071ZQTB4G

    Probably better if you can find a copy at a library. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  6. fredj338

    fredj338

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    No doubt, but few can deny the current times have changed quite a bit. Sure, 5rds is likely enough, especially if you have trained & practiced with your chosen snub. reality, few have or do & wouldn't it just suck to need 7rds when you only had 5. Almost made it, almost.:angel:
     
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  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Probably depends how they define "rapid fire". You can certainly do it if they allow a 1 shot per second cadence, or even if they limit it to 1 shot no faster than every 2 secs. If you can "recover" from each accurately aimed shot/hit and be ready to make that next aimed DA shot, even if you have to wait another full second to make the next shot to comply with range safety rules, it would probably help give you some insight into whether your DA/DAO revolver skills are where you want them to be.

    Shooting the diminutive J snubs is about working to master your DA trigger press ... while holding the itty bitty grips and taming the increased recoil due to the lighter weight. Well, the different trigger (size) geometry introduces an interesting higher demand on the shooter, too.
     
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  8. sciolist

    sciolist On the Border

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    In the context of defensive shooting, rapid fire would be more like 6 shots/second. A second is a pretty long time...
     
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  9. fredj338

    fredj338

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    My issue with this drill in general, 5x5x5 is basically target practice. Assuming a 1.5sec presentation to first shot, 3/4sec splits is pretty leisurely. A target can move off your line of sight between shots, either by design or default (rds striking him). Why I feel accurate split times do matter in a fight.
    I know I don't plan on standing in one place while being attacked by anyone with anything, I would expect my attacker to try to not get shot as well. I would expect the entire thing to be over in less than 3sec. I would like all those rounds to land on COM regardless of where the target or I end up.
     
  10. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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    Here's another thing to consider about this subject. It's of little use to consider gun fights from "back in the day" when it was predominantly revolver on revolver. But how many bad guys today are using revolvers, and what capacity do we expect the bad guy to be carrying?

    food for thought.
     
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  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yes sir! ElPaso Wallmart anyone?? SanBernadino banquet room, it goes on & on. Even if I knew my fight would be a guy with a small knife inside a coat closet, I would want more than 5rds.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  12. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    It's not "target practice", really, per se.

    It's an assessment drill, and various trainers have used it (or a variation) as such.

    Also, it's often done without having to include a draw and "presentation". That can be tested and evaluated with different drills.

    The weapon is held at a designated low/ready. (That removes the 1.5sec (+/-) time consideration of the presentation.)

    You're not testing draw and presentation. You're just testing and evaluating whether the shooter is driving the gun and is able to make accurate hits, or the gun's recoil is driving the shooter and causing rushed shots and misses.

    It's also not a drill designed to test someone's ability to shoot & move, or move while shooting. There are other training drills that can teach and assess those abilities.

    It's a drill created to assess an average shooter's ability to control the gun (trigger press and recoil management) and make consistent hits. It's not a way to assess master and grand master shooters. ;)

    It's also handy - and more demanding - when used to assess basic abilities shooting smaller and lighter guns.

    If you try it on a handful of shooters who consider themselves to be of intermediate skill levels, but they can't do it right off the mark, let alone consistently? Well, perhaps some remediation of basics might be in order. ;)
     
  13. mmcbeat

    mmcbeat

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    Instances where 5 wasn't enough.
    When there are 6 bad guys.
    Seriously though, I carried a J-frame for a long time and always felt well armed. With it, I carried a speed strip with 6 rounds. Nowadays I carry a G43, 6+1 and an extra magazine.
     
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  14. Bradd D

    Bradd D

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    I don't tend to make my decisions based on what is statistically likely to happen. In 2001, I didn't think someone would fly a jetliner into a skyscraper.
     
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  15. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    You do remember how many years the S&W M59 and the Browning HP were available and in circulation, right? (The M59 was the 'come lately' hi-cap 9, introduced at the beginning of the 70's.) They were being used for many years while revolvers were still in a lot of LE holsters.

    So were pump and double barrel shotguns.

    Now, the growing promotion of box-magazine fed semiauto rifles being glorified in TV and Movies probably hasn't helped matters, as criminals are just as enamored of "high capacity" nowadays as many an average lawful gun owner/enthusiast.

    Personally, I know full well that some criminal might be carrying a stolen hi-cap pistol, considering the huge popularity of all the double stack plastic that's been available on the market.

    However, that doesn't change my focus from working to make those first 1-3 shots (of mine) hit what I intend for them to hit. Not just some "random" COM, lower torso or limb hits. (Although you can never know how some bullet might "act" once it penetrates dermal layers and may be deflected off bone structures. Bullets can do strange things.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  16. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Nothing inherently "wrong" with having another 2 rounds before loading is again needed. ;)

    Another practical advantage of the diminutive pistol is that it's not unusual for the "average" shooter (especially who doesn't practice often) to be able to shoot a small pistol better than a smaller revolver).

    Different strokes.
     
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  17. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    You mean the El Paso Walmart shooting?

    I bet any number of people who were caught in that incident - without guns - might've welcomed even having a 5-shot revolver at hand.

    As far as the shooting at the San Bernardino Inland Regional Center's banquet room?

    I also suspect that a number of victims caught there might've welcomed having even a 5-shot snub revolver at hand during the close quarters situations in the 3 minutes and 32 secs it took for the police response. (Or their own rifles, comes to that.)

    Now, if I were responding to such situations I'd want a rifle myself, and L3 body armor with plates, if possible.

    If caught up as a private person (or retired cop) in such an incident? I'd have to make do with a handgun (and consider the other potential risk of being a "man with a gun" as the frantic local cops arrived on-scene).

    Granted, my J's and LCP's would be a bit less appealing to me under such circumstances compared to my 9's, .40's & .45's ... but I'm not living each day going out in public gird for one of those rare situations of an active shooter.

    That's why I don't carry a full medical kit and fire extinguisher on my person in a backpack every day, too, although it's far more likely I might encounter the need for either/both of those in some public places.

    Now, one of the reasons both of those horrific crimes at the Walmart and Inland Regional Center were scary was likely because they involved suspects using semiauto rifles, and rifles with themselves were capable of using high capacity magazines.
     
  18. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

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    He's a good trainer.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     
  19. NAZG26

    NAZG26 Lost in transit

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    88 Magnum > this thread
     
  20. bravo619

    bravo619

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    Me gots 3 extra [​IMG]
     
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