Instances where 5 wasn't enough.

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Out West, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. seanmac45

    seanmac45 CLM

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    NYPD produces an annual report on firearms discharges for the previous year. It was called, in my day, SOP 9. This is a summary of every single incident, breaking them down by many factors for analysis.

    The following category may prove enlightening;

    SHOTS FIRED PER ADVERSARIAL INCIDENT BY ALL OFFICERS INVOLVED WITH FIVE OR LESS ROUNDS BEING DISCHARGED

    2007 68%

    2008 84%

    2009 90%

    2010 77%

    2011 69%

    2012 72%

    2013 73%

    2014 72%

    2015 65%

    2016 73%

    2017 65%


    Seeing as these are Police involved shootings, it would seem to follow that concealed carry events would meet or exceed those numbers in small round count events.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  2. SK2344

    SK2344

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    One has to be a complete Moron to disagree with the Fact that having more rounds in a gunfight is better than only Five! Having said this, there are many gun people who carry a 6 + 1 or a five round Revolver for self protection and I am one of those people! I am 75 years old and I have carried both Revolvers and Semi Autos as Duty Weapons and for only Self Defense and at this stage of my life, I carry a Snub Nose 5 shot revolver, a G 43 6 + 1 or a LCP II. No more heavy hunks of Iron around my waist with extra mags for my self protection. I'm perfectly happy and confident with my set up to protect myself and I'm quite sure their are many gun guys like myself who feel the same way! Carry whatever makes you feel good, because I do!
     

  3. bravo619

    bravo619

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    lol I live in Tulsa about a mile from where this happened and let me tell you those women were scared to death and I give them at the effort they put out to get the pos behind bars. Just think how many dumbass people are running around with guns and have no clue what they will do when confronted! At least that’s my take on our constitutional carry crap. Oh and I want my money that I put out to get my license. Since all the idiots don’t have to pay!



    -- "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ 2. The American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
     
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  4. LostinTexas

    LostinTexas Exploring Alternate Routes

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    A few years ago, 5-7 or the like, a young mother was at home with the kiddos. She heard a ruckus and grabbed the 38 SP revolver and cell phone, rounded up the kids and they all hid in some sort of air intake or small room type place near or entering the attic. She calls hubby, who in turn calls 911. He and 911 listen to the entire event. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. If my memory is correct, they were there in good time, FWIW.
    BG opens the door and she puts 5 in him from close range and pretty good shots. That is all she had. BG breaks off attack and goes down stairs, get into car, and drives away. I read two accounts at this point. He was found about a mile away, one says deaded, the other says hurted. Either way mom stopped what may have been a tragic event.
    Now, she didn't "lose" the encounter. Fact is, it worked out as intended, but not quite the way it should have.
    I really don't care for the 38SP as a defensive round. It is anemic, over hyped, and comes in a revolver almost exclusively. It gains it's reputation from a time when there wasn't much better, or the better had fallen from favor for what ever reason.
    I would bet Dollars to doughnuts, that if asked the young lady in the above story would have opted for more ammo, given a choice. It happened in Georgia, IIRC but my head was on the ground for a long time during that wreck. Still, the account should be close.

    I know we have a lot of marksmen in GT, bit IIRC on average only about 10% of rounds fired make contact, any contact, with the intended target.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  5. bravo619

    bravo619

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    Biden or Cheney lol http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/4cz3D8Yhyzcg8/giphy.gif



    -- "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ 2. The American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  6. MedicineBow

    MedicineBow Formerly TFLWYO

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    I really don’t see the benefit of looking for anecdotal evidence concerning rounds expended in a non-police gunfight unless it is to justify a particular belief. It doesn’t validate anything for a lot of reasons. First, there is no database of non-police shootings. Information comes from press reports and word of mouth. While police can administratively be compelled to provide detailed information to their agencies about shots fired, non-police cannot, and their best course of action is to shut up. Second, non-police shootings do not get the level or duration of media scrutiny that police shootings get, so the details are not vetted to the same extent as police shootings. Third, discounting police shootings as being somewhat different than non-police shootings glosses over some things. A person who decides he is not going to be taken by the police, and who shoots at the police, surely has no qualms about doing the same thing to non-police, including things like carjacking an escape vehicle, breaking and entering, and taking hostages, in addition to “everyday” crimes not tied to escaping or shooting at police. Why start the analysis by taking “that guy” totally out of the equation. Finally, it doesn’t take into account the person’s equipment and competence or incompetence, which factors into shots fired and shots not fired that should have been.
     
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  7. Matt VDW

    Matt VDW Millennium Member

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    It's hard to find documented instances of the sort discussed here because:

    1) Private citizens don't have to report their shootings the way that institutional shooters ( e.g., police) do.

    2) People who end up dead can't tell us what happened.
     
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  8. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    Agreed. Most people carry guns as magic talisman and don’t train or practice. That’s like having an escape helicopter in case of SHTF and not knowing how to fly.

    Honestly, I don’t need a gun at all. But when going out, I think of the type of scenario I would like to be prepared for. I know from competition that shooting on the move and under stress is pretty difficult, so I want mechanical advantage on my side.

    Otherwise you could say, “Hey. I should just remove the sights off my gun because most self defense shootings don’t use their sights at those distances anyway!”

    If I’m going through the trouble of carrying a snubbie, a 380ACP is ballistically similar to 38 spl and flatter.

    That being said, I like a revolver from a contact standpoint so I often will carry an 8-shot 38/357.

    But if you take contact out of it and just talk about size and ballistics...

    I’d take an 11oz LCP with 7 round magazine over my 12oz 5 shot 340 PD. But realistically, both would be fine.
     
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  9. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    You’ve got a mean wife?
     
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  10. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    What about where more than five was needed to win?

    Anyway, yes there are plenty of stories out there.
     
  11. Mister X

    Mister X

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    I'm fine with a 5 shot snub.

    There's trade offs in any choice and I think the pro/con profile of a small, lightweight revolver make sense. Sure, it would be nice if it held more rounds, but I won't trade it's accessibility, safety, ease of carry, quickness into action and reliability(especially in contact scenarios) just to gain a few more rounds for the extremely slim chance 5 rounds may not be enough. If I was really worried about it, I'd just carry another snub, which would also increase accessibility options.

    I think most gun guys are too overly influenced by what the military and police use as well as gun games, which is about as far removed from civilian self-defense as it gets. Add in most defensive shooting instructors come from a military/police/competitive background and you can see why most armed civilians see things the way they do.

    I've trained with snubs extensively and in what I believe is relevant to what I'm most likely to encounter and that doesn't really involve a whole lot of static target shooting. I'm well versed on the non-physical aspects of personal defense, stay in good physical condition and give priority to unarmed and integrated H2H skills, which many gun centric folks treat as an afterthought, but are probably the most crucial and difficult skills to learn IMO. And attending ECQC once a year or taking a few McDojo classes won't do much for you, but that seems to be the most common practices.

    Just my perspective, everyone will choose according to their perceived needs. Keep in mind that not all instructors are all that concerned about what's in your best interest, only in separating you from your money. I've known instructors tout the virtues of the full size auto(better for unecessary all day shooting classes and more skills to teach), while carrying a snub themselves.
     
  12. 9x45

    9x45 Millennium Member

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    One of our Deputies got into an off duty gun fight with his J frame. Perp had a G17. He put 4 of 5 rounds in the perp, but he was drugged out and continued to fire on our Deputy. He only survived because he held his arm in front of him, and the perp shot the heck out of it. By then the swarm arrived and wasted the perp.
     
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  13. 9x45

    9x45 Millennium Member

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    Private citizens with CCW permits DO have to report a shooting within 5 business days. This will lead to an interview by the issueing agency.
     
  14. Lil

    Lil

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    The FBI tells us we, including pros on the streets, can't hit a barn; 25% hit rate, 2.5 hits needed to halt action. That's a quick 10 rounds for one customer. Now if there are two customers needing service and the one and only revo reload just went quiet, better grab the BUG G26 w/ 15 rnd mag.;)
     
  15. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    So, the million dollar question: does that deputy still only carry a 5-shot snub? Or has he upgraded?
     
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  16. Patchman

    Patchman Florist

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    Even Cuomo, that crazy governor of NY, doesn't think 5 rounds is enough because a few years back, when he knee-jerked by mandating a bullets capacity limit, the limit was 7 rounds!!!!!!!!

    Seriously, I hope when someone is considering a revolver for CCW, he/she understands that one of the revolver's limitation is the 5/6rounds, with reloading impractical. And if that works for the CCWer, go for it. Nothing wrong as a personal choice because I don't think any of us (not LE or .mil) will know if our next gunfight is going to be prolonged or not.

    Given today's handgun choices (mine is the G19/G26), I can't see myself voluntarily putting only 5 rounds in either the G19's or the G26's magazines and calling that good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  17. Geeorge

    Geeorge Sarcasm Inc.

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    5 is a lot better than none, I used to carry a J frame sometimes but after I had my model 65 modified with the 2in barrel I gave the j frame carry up. 6 rounds of 357 mag is enough for me and is pleasant to shoot compared to a 357 j frame
     
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  18. Lt Scott 14

    Lt Scott 14

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    I read the entire thread. Don't really believe any gun mag suggestions, or gun store commandos. I was a LEO, and when they (bad guys) decide you are a target, you are.
    My EDC is a G19. Also spare mag. Winter around the corner coming, I also carry a 442 S&W in pocket rig in coat pocket. Not paranoid, just prepared. If my strong side can be easily drawn, then so be it. BackUp gun is usually on weak side and my hand is in the pocket, ready. No kidding, it's easy to plan. Dress around your carry gun, have plan B ready. Good luck.
     
  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I'll bet he upgraded as would likely anyone finding their choice lacking. That is the whole thing, we all carry but never get in a fight, so many look to make that easier to do, smaller/lighter guns stuffed into places never practiced with. I can almost guarantee most if not all, once surviving a fight like the one mentioned above, will switch to something else.
    It's a food for thought thing, but you wont get people to change unless it smacks them in the face. WHy so many ccw & LEO are poor shooters, they have never been tested so why bother, good enough. Then some of us can see it coming by studying others failures. After all why many of us choose to carry when others don't want to bother.
     
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  20. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Simple test. I give you 2 targets @ 5y, in low light, 3sec to solve that problem. Most will find their 5 shots very, very much lacking. 5rds when everything is moving fast goes very, very quickly & you now have a very poor club.
     
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