Instances where 5 wasn't enough.

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Out West, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. Out West

    Out West

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    Anybody got a documented instance where a civilian lost a deadly encounter because five shots wasn't enough?
     
  2. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    Not directly, but Tom Givens has a pretty neat database of his 65 (known) students who've gotten into gunfights. You'll see plenty of them that used more than 5 to solve the problem. What would have happened if they didn't have those extra rounds is somewhat of a conjecture, but that's what inductive logic is for.
     

  3. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    The question is, was five enough but they kept shooting? I’ve always wondered how many clicks occur after the rounds are spent in a revolver during a self defense shooting
     
  4. Rellik

    Rellik Kwisatz Haderach in Training

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    Lucky Gunner has a vid "I might have been mistaken about pocket guns". Addresses civilian pistol needs versus service pistol needs.

    Claude Werner has studied this extensively for years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  5. rayzer007

    rayzer007

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    I know five can go pretty quickly (1+ second) in a dynamic situation for sure.
     
  6. Out West

    Out West

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    If I read Tom Givens correctly, only three of sixty five lost. And only because they were not armed. Did I miss something?
     
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  7. jd4223

    jd4223

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    The main reason for the 5 shots not being enough is not making each shot count. I know easier said than done. Case in point.When I was a Detroit cop years ago,we would carry a total of 18 rounds(6 in our revolvers and 12 in a double ammo pouch). My partner and I responded to a store robbery in progress. As we were pulling up to the location,the bad guy was running out of the store and started firing at us. We exited our scout car and got behind the vehicle for cover. The bad guy ran across the main street and took cover behind a parked car and stared shooting across the street striking our vehicle. Now my partner returned fire and within a 10 minute time frame was out of ammunition and was asking me for some of mine.At this point I hadn't even fired a shot since there was no visible target to shoot at. About this time back up pulled up and 1 of the officers got a shotgun from his scout car and fired a round(00 buck) under the vehicle the bad guy was hiding behind striking the bad guy in the leg causing him to surrender(they call this skip shooting). Now my partner had fired a total of 18 rounds and the only thing he hit was several parked cars and maybe a house or two. This is what I mean when I say making each shot count. Like I said,easier said than done during the heat of a battle.
     
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  8. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Off topic, but what is a scout car?

    Auto correct for squad, or something else different?

    Just curious, thanks :)
     
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  9. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    You missed the ones that needed more than 5 shots to win.
     
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  10. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    I’d never heard the term, but first thing that came to mind was an unmarked to sneak up

    “Hey Pac-Man!!”

    6CDC72C2-1EAB-4AF1-A675-37A9114EB2D4.jpeg
     
  11. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    While not definitive, if you watch those "active self-protection" videos on youtube, the shots happen fast and close, and then over. I think the host of that channel says he's never seen a civilian reload.

    It seems people are either down and done, or are fleeing.

    I'm not saying a protracted shoot out can't happen, just that it must be pretty darn rare.
     
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  12. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    Agreed. MOST times it’s someone wants something that they see you have. When you pull out the gun (that they didn’t see), they quickly decide they don’t want your (cellphone, car, wallet) bad enough to take some lead with it. I’d venture to guess a lot of the shots fired back from the bad guy are fired one handed while turned sideways and running away
     
  13. Out West

    Out West

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    I guess so. How many?
     
  14. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    https://www.policemag.com/cop-slang/scout-car

    Also, apparently used by Detroit cops.
     
  15. -JCN-

    -JCN-

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    You might not consider this a “loss,” but I chalk this up to “small caliber, small capacity and poor training” and is essentially a loss in my book. They got lucky and survived.



    I used to carry a 5 shot NAA Pug, but these days I feel better about a 12 round 9mm and training.
     
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  16. Bradley T

    Bradley T

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  17. fredj338

    fredj338

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    What makes you think 5 is enough? There are dozens of home invasion & personal attacks where people fired more than 5rds. Today we have multiple attackers, semiauto firearms, it isnt just a simple mugging by a thug with a pocket knife. 5rds goes really quick if your attacker presses the attack. Even if you land 5 good hits, a determined attacker may kill you before he himself dies. Ccw or leo, a fight is a fight.
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-ho...-injures-2-during-home-invasion-officials-say
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  18. Decutor

    Decutor

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    Here’s the thing

    A G19 or G17 holds more rounds than a snubbie, sure, but that’s not the point.

    Today’s modern service autos are easy to use, easy to be accurate with and very reliable. All of those are far more important than capacity (which I also wouldn’t trade off, but I digress).
     
  19. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    And my snubbies (and all my other revolvers) are also easy to use, easy to be accurate and very reliable.

    Not to mention very easy to find ammo that will feed reliably.