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Indoor Match ... Cheating????

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by mleeber, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. mleeber

    mleeber

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    I have now shot in 2 indoor events (4 actual visits to the range). My first event (2 range visits) was at Bulls-eye in Lawrenceville GA and I just finished the 2nd of 3 shoots at Bullseye Marksman in Cumming GA.

    I noticed at the first match, in Lawrenceville, folks were folding the targets in half making a distinct crease through the middle of the X ring. I did not realize until after shooting that this is so they knew where the X ring was when the target was run out to 25 yards (even the best eyes cannot see the rings at 25 yards and this is the first position for a fresh target so there are no holes in it yet indicating the middle).

    Today I was in the last group at the range in Cumming and one of the guys did the crease thing and I gave him some greif for "cheating". He had been hanging out at the range for most of the 4 hour shoot and said "most of the older guys were doing this all morning." He did end up changing targets before shooting. I felt a little guilty for accusing someone I did not know of cheating, even though it was sort of toungue and cheek the way I said it. It bothered me enough that I was thinking about it while shooting my 25 yard target and I did not shoot as well as I had the first run.

    So is this cheating? I think it has to be, it is no different that placing a nice blaze orange dot in the middle of the target. I do not think that the range owners/hosts will say anything as they are interested in the revenue.

    Any of you other indoor shooters see this and what would you do?

    Mark
     
  2. Terminator

    Terminator

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    I dont shoot indoor matches, but i can see where that would be an advantage. I dont think its in the spirit of fair play to alter a target during a match for a better score.

    Just my opinion
     

  3. Rikki

    Rikki Pathetic Loser

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    AFAIK there is no rule in GSSF that prohibits what the NRA or NMLRA would refer to as a "False aiming point".
    It certainly would NOT be within the spirit of the competition- but that is my opinion and YMMV.
    Shooting at a creased paper at 25yds...I dunno if that's an advantage or not- I can't see the "scoring rings"..so I couldn't see the crease- but I got bad eyes.
    I figured out that the D-1 is symmetric, so when faced with the "paper ones" I shoot for the center of the paper- but like I said- you could crease mine till the cows come home and I couldn't see them.
    Several years ago a few of us thought it would be cute to put a staple exactly in the center of the "X" ring on our 50 yd BE targets
    at Miami R&P during a match...anybody that knocked the staple out got a coke as I recall....wham! all three of us got that target DQ'ed!
    they said we were putting a "false aimimg point" on our targets...
    Now...what were the chances of us seeing that staple at 50 yds???
    None...but...those were the rules...
    I think you've raised a good point- I don't think there is a rule AGAINST it- so, go get some of those bright red stickie things and have at it!
    You're going to find "cheaters" in all the sports- from tiddley winks to baseball...Plenty of cheaters in "outdoor" GSSF! You'll find a cheater won't let a little sunshine and fresh air stand in their way...
    In the end- only YOU know how you shot, if you've improved, and if you're able to like the guy in the mirror...don't worry about the others...
    Terminator???? Where were you??? You missed a very snowy day in L'ville!!!!
     
  4. lethal tupperwa

    lethal tupperwa

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    The next thing you know they will outlaw the 9mm pencils used in scoring.
     
  5. RTGAP

    RTGAP

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    I can't say that I've seen anyone folding their targets but would you consider shooting the second target in the wrong order as cheating ?
    I shot in one indoor match and they started shooting their second target at the closest position and shot the 25 yard string last. (that was the way they had everyone shoot)... so if you think a crease is cheating, how about 10 shots around the center!
     
  6. Rikki

    Rikki Pathetic Loser

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    RT you hot handed hottie!!!!
    You're assuming we all can put those 2 five shot strings in the CENTER!!!
    We're NOT all like you...you, you, you...MISTER 500!!!!
    Congratulations on a clean run! You must be liking the '37???
     
  7. Terminator

    Terminator

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    Rikki
    Actually the roads here were pretty slick this morning so we stayed home. We got some decent snowfall last night which kept me in today.
     
  8. RTGAP

    RTGAP

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    I have to admit... I do like my 37.. but have to give the credit to the work KYGUNDOC did and the sweat reloads a friend of mine produced. Thanks Danny
     
  9. Rikki

    Rikki Pathetic Loser

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    RT!!!!
    You got a Glock Wrench on your staff???? and a Mystery Reloader on staff too????
    We'll have to call the Democrats to INVESTIGATE!!!
    Ps...Dang you took the big guns to school today! Just saw the scores over on Bluegrass Glockers.
     
  10. ede

    ede Bama's Friend

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    mark i shoot at 2 indoor matchs here and that would get you run off, but as i understand it the host range has a lot of room to make their own rules.
     
  11. domzilla9

    domzilla9 Phone Flinger

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    I find the idea of someone folding an NRA D1 target in half to cheat by giving them a reference point on the X ring to be quite humorous.

    Everyone should already know where the X ring is. It's right where it's suposed to be, at the intersection of imaginary lines drawn through the opposite corners of the big paper rectangle that the target is printed on. If you can't clearly see the rectangular outline of the target at 25 yards you surely can't see a crease in the paper.

    I tend to think of shooting a GSSF indoor match as a competition against my own record. I mean, the stage layout and course of fire doesn't change. There is no "game" factor in indoor. It's you and your trigger pull against a clock and a stationary target that shrinks and then increases in size. Being faster than someone else doesn't give you a better score.

    So, anyone who would purposefully crease a target at an indoor GSSF match is not really worth wasting your breath on. And I seriously doubt that the folks who start the second target at 25' instead of 25 yards shoot any better at the 25 yard target than they would otherwise.
     
  12. mleeber

    mleeber

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    What stands out in my mind is what I could do if my target were creased. Although we all know that the X ring is in the center of a D1, if I were to crease the target I would be able to see the crease at 25 yeards and it would definately allow me to shoot a better score. The 25 yard target is where I throw one or two out of the 10 ring on a regular basis.

    What domzilla says about "a competition against my own record" is very true. The only prize for winning is a plaque for the wall which really does not excite me. I am chasing that 500 score. As for time, since I shoot alot of IPSC I am usually done in 5-7 seconds on all but the 25 yarder where I take my time and usually finish in 10 seconds (speed is a bad habit in bullseye). I much prefer IPSC and the GSSF outdoor but since the range is right up the street I feel like I have to play.

    Thanks for the thoughts!

    Mark
     
  13. GlockOD23

    GlockOD23 OD GLOCKER

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    I shot this weekend at Bullseye in Cumming as well. I was there around 11:00 AM ... lots of folks were folding their targets. I had no idea why ... thanks for the heads up ....

    As far as the crease versus the X ... you can most definitely see the crease at 25 yards much easier than the X ..

    How did yah do? I shot a 447 with my Glock 23 ....
     
  14. mleeber

    mleeber

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    I use a G34. 9mm is a lot easier for me to control, I can't imagine that I would even hit the paper at 25 yards with a G23.

    I shot a 496. I threw 1 flyer at the 15 yard target and 1 at 25 yards.

    Nice range though! You should check out IPSC on Tuesday nights, lots of fun and it is a good group of guys. 7 to 9 PM every Tuesday.
     
  15. SanduneCC

    SanduneCC Senior Member

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    If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying! ;N
     
  16. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    I shoot at the same ranges ede shoots. One time, at NASR, someone tried to fold the target and he was caught. Ben, who was helping run the match noticed it and told the man that it was illegal to fold his target. He made him put out another one, not folded. I probably couldn't hit a lot of "Xs" at 75 feet if you painted the outline of the target in "hunter orange." Here in Ohio, we try hard to keep you honest, at least close to Columbus and the burbs!



    ;z ;z ;z ;z
     
  17. shadow_dog

    shadow_dog Hilljack

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    One thing I have noticed, not with all shooters, but just one that I happened to be watching one day was their stance. They were shooting right handed, and they rested their shoulder and left arm against the left side partician of the "booth" they were in. Even my wife noticed this and made comments about it before I confirmed to her I saw the same thing. Nothing like having a rest to steady yourself, huh? Oh well, I guess some people will do anything to try to have a good score. IMO, this is cheating in one of the worst ways.
     
  18. ede

    ede Bama's Friend

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    mark week ago i shoot a 498 with my g26 and another 498 with my g27. i want to get a 500 with the sub guns. i've got 500s last 3 matches i've shot. funny thing is i've dropped a round out of the 10 ring at 50' not 75' like you'd think. good luck on the 500 it's a great feeling when you finially get the first one then you feel like you have to do it every time.