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Imagine if the teachers' strike...

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by devildog2067, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    Going back to my initial assertion:

    The teachers that I know do not want more money. They feel they are fairly compensated, despite being compensated at a relatively low rate compared to the private sector.

    The teachers that I know only want to be fairly evaluated.

    Going back to my "Doctor" analogy, please explain to me how it is rational to pin a child's cognitive abilities, aptitude, level of interest, motivation, English proficiency and behavior entirely on a third-grade teacher who only sees him 7 hours per day, 180 days per year?

    You really think the impact that teacher has is going to outweigh the influence of the child's drop-out parents who work in a factory?

    There is a reason that the children of educated individuals achieve much higher scores on standardized tests: they are expected to do so by their parents.
     
  2. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    I never said they shouldn't be held accountable, nor did I say they have no influence. I said they want to be held accountable in the right areas and that parents have the most direct impact on a child's chance of success. As your own research indicates, a student's home life has far greater impact on that child's academic ability than which teacher he/she had a particular year.

    I agree with this quote.

    Everything else in your other three posts has already been addressed between Rabbi and myself.
     

  3. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    Do you know anyone who thinks they are fairly evaluated?

    I'm in sales. My success is largely measured by a simple set of numbers. Those numbers represent only a fraction of what I do every day for my employer. I have a supervisor who lives 800 miles away who will see me 4x yearly. What do you think the chances are that I'll be evaluated fairly?

    I'm asked to work evenings, occasional weekends. I'm asked to do things that aren't directly in my job description. No additional compensation though, yes, I make a considerable amount more than a teacher.

    My point being that everyone has their burdens. IMO, teachers do an inordinate amount of complaining about theirs.
     
  4. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    The market compensates it at a higher rate. The market deems it more valuable.

    As for trying to tie the learning of those skills starting with teachers....nah, I am not falling for that. That is a poor argument. Using your logic, the teacher is more valuable than the skill...which is not true. The skill is more valuable than the teacher. Using your logic, the elementary teacher should make more than the high school teacher, and the high school teacher should make more than the college Prof....because without the first, a person would not be able to go on to the next....but it works the exact opposite way.

    You simply dont understand value. For a biting remark, the MBA would, the teacher, probably not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  5. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    The middle manager in a private corporation generates the wealth to fund the schools.

    That's how.

    As for fundamental skills, education is widely regarded as one of the least challenging college curriculums, not that it matters here.
     
  6. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    I'm in sales as well, in some of the most cost-competitive markets on earth.

    Before I did this, I was in sales in one of the most competitive industries in North America.

    We have the luxury of having an objective standard of measurement - our numbers. We have the luxury of being left to our own devices as to how we achieve those numbers.

    Teachers do not.

    Teachers cannot 80/20 their customers and "fire" the bad ones. Teachers cannot spend the majority of their time developing their "best" accounts - in fact, they have to spend most of their time trying to bring their laggards up to speed. Teachers have to follow very tightly scripted lesson plan templates in the classroom and meet very specific learning objectives - can you imagine if you had to use a script on every single sales call? Would you be as effective? Teachers cannot work harder or put in more hours to generate better results. They are on a limited schedule...

    I could go on and on and on... Yes, everyone has their cross to bear and everyone has things they can complain about in their job - including evaluations.

    But the simple fact of the matter is that evaluating teachers is much more subjective than evaluating a salesman.
     
  7. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

    You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.
     
  8. CAcop

    CAcop

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    Funny you should mention that. What do you think of social promotion in the schools and its effect on other students?
     
  9. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    We've already established that there are outside factors that affect teacher compensation. It's ludicrous to say that pure market forces are at work in public education. "The market" hasn't deemed anything. If education truly paid a fair wage, why would anyone ever leave? Why would 50% of teachers leave the classroom within 5 years?

    If people do not need basic math, reading or other skills related to the learning process itself, why do we even have teachers then? To reverse your logic, you would expect people to be able to analyze macroeconomic trend data, develop financial forecasts and conduct market research without mastery of underlying, fundamental skills required to do so?

    I don't believe that any "phase" of education is inherently more valuable than any other, but my experiences have taught me that being surrounded by a team with true mastery of basic concepts will get you much further than surrounding yourself with people who have lofty, visionary goals with no ability to execute on them.

    Your "biting" remark doesn't offend me in the least because it is patently false. The amount of profit (read: not simply revenue) that I've generated for my employers over the past few years would not have been possible without a fundamental grasp of such concepts.

    I'm not going to get into a willy-measuring contest on the internet over whether or not I understand value, because value is one of the most subjective topics we could possibly discuss.

    For example, I value a proper primary and secondary education at a greater rate than you because I've seen it's ability to create further value down the chain. I fully credit my education and the wonderful teachers and mentors I've had for getting me to where I'm at right now. I learned more from my teachers and professors than I've learned from any manager I've worked for.

    That's my bias. That's why I value teachers over MBAs.

    I grew up in a blue-collar home with high school educated parents. I wasn't given anything but a strong work ethic and constant encouragement to study hard and make something of myself.
     
  10. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    Please tell me more about which course of study is more challenging between Business and Education. :cool:

    Let's do it via PM, if you're willing.
     
  11. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    Success in evaluating educators comes in hybrid form.

    1. Define the right outcomes
    2. Define the best practices that generate those outcomes
    3. Evaluate based on the adherence to best practices

    This is a bit backward from what you and I are used to in sales, because ultimately our number is what gets us paid. In teaching, it doesn't work like that for the reasons I mentioned above. In teaching, using statistically-proven best practices is much more likely to generate improvements than creating incentives purely focused on the end-state objective.

    You cannot set arbitrary values to learning. Saying, "Every student must improve his/her Math scores by 10% this academic year," is unfair to the students and the teachers. Not all students have that bandwidth. You're setting them both up to fail.

    Have you ever taken the time to read through your state standards for education in primary or secondary schools? They're published on your state's DoE website.

    It may be worth your time.
     
  12. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    That sounds like what they're doing now.

    At some point a metric must apply though.

    Overlay it to sales. Outcome is defined. Often best practices are defined. However still accountable to a measurable result.
     
  13. Brucev

    Brucev

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    So... given your great concern for excellence in education, when will you be graduating and entering the class room to bring your outstanding job skills and expertise to the process of educating the future of America? Get qualified... get in the classroom and show everyone what you can do! Get with it! Be the man you say everyone in education should be! Man up and face the challenge! Keep everyone posted on your day to day success as you put into action all the knowledge and insight you claim to possess. Surely you are not simply standing around sipping coffee and complaining... are you?
     
  14. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    See, here is the problem. You honestly believe that there is equivalence.

    Again, A masters of education is the running joke of the graduate degree world. That is not my joke. It just is. It is generally considered among the easiest to obtain graduate degrees.

    An MBA is not.

    I am not sure why you are planting your flag on this hill but oh well.
     
  15. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    Silly post. I'm dissatisfied with the service I receive at wal mart too. Should I change careers and become an associate?

    I put my kids in private schools. I'm quite pleased.

    I also endowed a scholarship at the private high school I attended.

    That's how I choose to address the problem.

    Still not sure what your point is.
     
  16. ilgunguygt

    ilgunguygt Enslaved in IL

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    Yeah, but this is about the chicago teachers. They were already overpaid!!!

    Like I said earlier in this thread, those teachers already made more than TWICE what the teachers make in the rest of the state. While making TWICE as much money they have LESS THAN HALF as many students per teacher.

    While you may feel sorry for them, no one else here in IL does. There was ZERO sympathy for them here in downstate IL, even with the union teachers we have. In fact, there was a lot of anger when some of them found out that after 5 years they were making 30K a year and those teachers were making about 75K with the same experience, and wanted a 17% raise, all the while having a 10:1 student to teacher ratio.
     
  17. CAcop

    CAcop

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    Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

    It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

    Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.
     
  18. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    Outside of being jovial, there is no real engineer that thinks physics is not a "real science"

    Either you didnt understand the conversation or didnt get the sarcasm. It is that simple.
     
  19. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    Physics is a real science. Engineering is applied science.


    Fundamentally, all science is physics. At any university is is among the most challenging of fields.
     
  20. Flying-Dutchman

    Flying-Dutchman

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    Not possible. You cannot teach those unable or unwilling to learn no matter how much money you spend.

    First, teachers need to dress in a professional way for professional pay.

    Second, we need to turn the tables; make a public education a privilege not an obligation.

    Test out the kids early on and send those with low aptitude to trade school.

    Anyone with a bad attitude gets banned from school completely to prevent disruptions in the classroom.

    The age of reason is 7 not 18.