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Imagine if the teachers' strike...

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by devildog2067, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    And those are exactly the ones we don't WANT staying. Those are the ones who are overpaid.

    There is another category: Those that stay because they really, truly love teaching and see it as a calling. These teachers are very much underpaid.

    But the way we've constructed our teacher pay scale, both of these teachers get paid the same. It's criminally lazy. Pay great teachers more and bad teachers less.
     
  2. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    If they're ineffective, shouldn't we be cutting pay?
     

  3. CAcop

    CAcop

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    It's going to take a whole lot of people in the room to try to come up with a fair performance evaluation. Holding ghetto high school teachers to the same standards as suburban elementary kids is going to be problematic. Teachers, parents, admin, and politicians not trying to score points with the public are going to have to work it out.

    To be honest even the teachers who were good and loved teaching still used the same lesson plans year after year.

    I think the 50% in 5 year dropout rate for teachers has a lot to do with the fact that at least here in CA it is only an extra year of college to get the teaching credential and then 5 years of teaching and continuing ed for the permanent. The fresh grads think, "Cool summers off." Then they realize they need to start taking classes, reading books, going to seminars, etc. to keep teaching. Now they have to decide when they are going to take essentially summer school or night school. And it is not like the school district is going to pay them for their time or expense. Who knows, they might need to do it more like cops where our training is provided by the employer.

    I know if I had gotten a teaching credential in college I would have been blind to the continuing ed requirements or I would have been less aware of the impact. Now I know and would be prepared for it. I would factor that into my decision to teach.

    I also think teaching my be leftover from our early days when unmarried women or married men would teach. The married men would do it for years and the unmarried women would do it until they found a man. And if they never found a man they would stick with it until they died or retired.
     
  4. dango

    dango

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    Or lack there of any parenting!
     
  5. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    DevilDog,

    The teachers I know aren't upset about being measured against a high standard. In fact, many of them welcome that. They're upset because the criteria they're being measured against do not reflect reality.

    DWavs made a bit of a mistake in his analogies earlier, but let's touch on that thread for a minute:

    Asking teachers to overcome all imaginable family, social and lifestyle factors to guarantee equal progress and/or equal outcomes for all students is the underlying goal of most teacher evaluation programs I've seen. Doing this assumes that all children are born equally intelligent to equally intelligent, educated parents. It assumes that these children are all proficient in English and that their families facilitate and encourage educational progress in the home. It assumes their parents read to all of them at night and help them with their homework. This approach assumes that these children all have identical levels of intrinsic motivation, self control and aptitude.

    It would literally be akin to asking a family physician to guarantee that a 30-year-old patient who smokes two packs a day, drinks a six-pack a night, abuses drugs, routinely forgets to bathe or brush his teeth, eats junk food, never exercises, stays up late playing video games, who has high blood pressure and a family history of heart disease, stroke and cancer and who has no willpower to live an even remotely healthy lifestyle whatsoever will live as long as an educated, responsible marathoner who eats well, gets plenty of sleep each night, does not drink, smoke or use drugs and who has no family history of any form of illness.

    Is it possible these two men could live to the same age? Indeed. Is it even possible the slob could outlive the health-nut? Sure.

    But can you honestly ask the doctor to treat both of them in such a capacity that they are both guaranteed an equal standard of living and lifespan? Absolutely not.

    Now imagine that the slob spends 7 hours per day with the doctor and attempts to clean up his act during the day, yet as soon as he leaves the doctor's office he goes back to his filthy apartment full of booze, junk food, cigarettes and drugs to a family that encourages him to stop seeing the doctor and instead partake in all of these unhealthy activities in order to fit in.

    Does that slob really stand a chance? Can that doctor really make a difference?

    GT loves to harp on and on about personal responsibility almost as much as GT loves to ***** about teachers, yet nobody on GT will blame the people most directly linked to the success of their children in ANY educational program: the parents.

    I also never see quantitative analysis of data showing the correlations between parents income level, education level and involvement in their child's education to the child's chances for academic success.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  6. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    Here in Indiana, 50% of teachers are out of the classroom within 5 years as well.

    Here in Indiana, teachers start at roughly $30,000 per year, with the option to earn an extra ~$2,000 for teaching summer school.

    Teacher salaries are capped after 20 years of service in the district I live in at $54,000 for Bachelor's degree-holders and $64,000 for Master's degree-holders.

    Do you know what the average salary is for someone with an M.B.A. in Indiana? Conservative numbers put a starting M.B.A. salary at about $66,000 - or MORE than a 20-year teacher with a Master's in Education.

    http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/sep2009/bs20090928_592028.htm

    Both of the teachers that I am related to work longer hours than I do for much lower pay and lesser benefits. The ONLY thing they have going for them is the "summers off" gig, except the district I live in just went to a year-round calendar.

    At my last job, which did not require a college degree, I made twice what the average teacher with 10 years of experience and a Master's degree in my district makes. I had six weeks of vacation per year, a ridiculous benefit plan and I worked roughly 35 hours per week.

    When I hear people talk about how great and easy teaching jobs are, I just want to slap them. Hard.
     
  7. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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  8. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    We all know that not all degrees lead to the same income.

    Having said that, a Masters in Education is considered one of the easiest (and is panned for being so) masters to get. An MBA on the other hand, can be a very valuable degree and is somewhere on the upper end of the middle in terms of difficulty to obtains.

    The other issue is use. People who get a masters in education pretty much universally teach (or needed to get the fastest and easiest masters they could for some other reason) They dont have a lot of channels to enter into with that degree.

    Someone who gets and MBA can do a very large number of things for a very large number of industries.

    A quick last thought and probably the most poignant...What does someone with an MBA do?...manage, and often ending up at the executive level. What does someone with a Masters of Education do?...the same thing, still teaching, now with incentive pay. So, at the most basic level, the MBA does something more and differant. The Masters in Education does the same things, just (in theory) better.

    The compensation of each reflects all of these things.

    To be flippant, your comparison is silly. Why dont you just compare Masters of Education to MSME guy...they get close to 6 figures for a starting point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  9. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    So be an RN. There really is no other rational answer.

    Have you seen the starting salary for a petroleum engineer? Using your logic, person with womans study degree should make a similar amount. It doesnt work that way.
     
  10. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    Rabbi,

    I provided the data for comparison purposes only...

    What I'm getting at is the fact that I almost universally hear that teachers are "overpaid" and whenever they want a wage increase, it's deemed extortion by GT-at-large.

    I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.
     
  11. MooseJaw

    MooseJaw NRA Lifer Silver Member CLM

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    Let 'em Strike..

    The NFL Ref scabs are available, and you can draw from that work pool to fill the vacancies..

    No Problemo.. :wavey:
     
  12. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    I can understand you feel that way, you may even be right but you did not illustrated that.

    Brain surgeons have a profesional degree(doctorate). People who have research degrees, such as a PhD (considered superior to professsional degrees in acedemia)

    Brain surgeons make a metric crap ton more money than guy with PhD in English.

    You cant compare teacher with masters in education to guy taking a management job in private industry with his MBA. They dont do the same thing, in the same place with the same skill sets.

    Masters of Education does not equal MBA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  13. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    I concede your point that the "level" of the degree does not in and of itself carry an inherent value for equal comparison.

    The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree - the minimum degree level required to teach in Indiana.

    A Women's Studies degree is not equal to an Education degree, which does not equal a Business degree or Engineering degree, etc.
    But from the continuing education perspective, that isn't as relevant as you would like for it to be.

    For instance, why would a middle manager in corporate America pursue a Master's in Education? Why would a teacher pursue an M.B.A.? They wouldn't. It would not make sense in the progression of their respective careers.

    So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  14. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    It is the next logical step(M.edu)...and that step doesnt pay as well as getting an MBA (or an RN...or whatever)

    If you are a cop and work for an agency that requires a "Masters" to be promoted to Captain....it doesnt matter if you get a MSME or a Masters in Education. Of course, that doesnt change the potential value of each of those choices.



    You are still looking at this in terms of apples and oranges. You cant (and you wont get anyone to take you seriously, except for folks who already agree with you) compare whate teachers make to what ....(whatever) makes.

    If you want to be a nurse, the market pays for that based on what a nurse must go though and then does.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  15. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    Why should we pay them more?

    That is a serious question. Teachers want a pay increase. Why should we, as taxpayers, give it to them? What will we get in return for it?

    Will results improve if we pay the teachers more?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  16. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    On the contrary: things like test scores are the most objective reality there is. There is no more "real" reality than a set of numbers like the results of a standardized test.

    The correct question to ask is, are those scores measuring the right thing? I think that's what you were trying to get at. But to suggest that test scores "do not reflect reality" is ridiculous.

    Not at all. Not even a little. No one is asking teachers to guarantee equal progress or equal outcomes.

    This is the beauty of large numbers: no one expects teachers to make every student equal. The expectation is that the teacher helps every student improve, such than, on average, the group shows improvement.

    If the teachers do not affect the outcome, then the teachers shouldn't have a job.

    But you're wrong. Teachers do have a measurable impact. Good teachers help students improve--a lot.

    I've done them. In fact, I do them for a living--my firm does quite a bit of pro bono work for school districts. Education is one of our social impact focuses.

    Of course students who come from wealthy families with well-educated parents tend to do better in school. So what?

    Teachers are NOT being asked to guarantee, as you continue to imply, that students in poor neighborhoods with broken families who go hungry at night perform at the same level as kids in suburban schools with soccer mommies.

    Teachers are being asked to help those kids. Those kids need help and they're not getting it.

    Teachers are being asked to show that their students are improving. The teacher evaluation system that the CTU was so up in arms about? It was going to measure each teacher's performance by testing their students at the beginning of the year, then again at the end of the year, and seeing if test scores improved. That's all. Did this teacher's 30 students do better after a year of teaching than before?

    If you genuinely, honestly think that a teacher shouldn't be held accountable to that bare minimum standard, then what are the teachers doing? Why do they have jobs in the first place?
     
  17. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    That sounds pretty low--we start MBAs at about $160-170k all in, plus a 5-figure signing bonus.

    I have been a teacher.

    Teaching is not hard.

    Teaching well is very hard, and a lot of work.

    You know what else is hard? Roofing. I did that one summer and I thought I was going to die.

    Salaries are not set by how "hard" a job is. Salaries are set by the amount of value that an employee creates. I get paid very well and I sit behind a desk for a living now, I really don't work very "hard" at all. My job is to think creatively and solve problems.

    It's not "hard" in the way that hauling shingles up a ladder was, but it's "hard" in the sense that not many people can do it. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of stress. We create a lot of value, and so we get paid a lot of money.

    That is fundamentally how people get paid. Salespeople who make sales are valuable to their companies, so they get paid. Orthopedic surgeons who do more knee replacement surgeries are more valuable than ones who do fewer, and they get paid more. Executives who manage companies well are more valuable than ones who do it poorly; the ones who do well get paid more and the ones who do badly get fired.

    You argue that teachers can't change the outcomes for students, so where is the value that they create? Why should they get paid at all?

    The above is rhetorical, of course. Teachers create immense value, it's just more difficult to measure than the value that a salesman brings to an organization. That's fine, not everything in life is simple.

    But to refuse to acknowledge that teachers can have a positive, measurable effect on outcomes--that's just stupid. Teachers want more, they should offer more.
     
  18. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    I know people with PhDs who are stay at home moms. I know people with PhDs who drive trucks (seriously, a buddy of mine was tired of being a scientist and got a CDL and now he drives trucks for a living, and seems pretty happy). I know people with PhDs who are professors, and I know people with PhDs who are partners in consulting firms that make a couple of million dollars (or more than a couple, some of them) annually.

    A degree is a minimum certification, nothing more. As someone who has several, I know better than most--at the end of the day, they're just letters after your name. They don't entitle you to anything at all, and in fact the idea that a teacher with a master's degree should automatically get paid more than a teacher with just a BA is part of what's wrong with teacher pay.

    So, go be a nurse.

    But does the Master's in Education make the teacher a better teacher?

    If so, shouldn't we be able to measure that impact?

    Shouldn't a teacher with "just" a BA whose students improve more than someone with a Masters whose students don't improve get paid more? Why should the Master's degree holder get paid more just because they got a sheepskin to hang on their wall? Doesn't performance matter more than checking a box?
     
  19. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    Other occupations don't give you "tenure" after a few years. And let's be honest, the "same" level of education isn't really the same. A BA in English is not the same as a BS in math. There's always a critical shortage of teachers in STEM fields, precisely because someone with a BS in chemistry can probably go do something else that pays more but someone with a BA in Art History probably can't.

    Everything that's wrong with the educational system can be traced back to this idea of treating everyone--students and teachers both--as being "the same."

    Let the great students excel, and the struggling students fail a bit. Let the great teachers get paid more and the lousy teachers get fired. Teacher effectiveness CAN be measured--not perfectly, but it can be done.
     
  20. INJoker

    INJoker Simply Charming

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    There are political factors outside of "the market" that affect teacher compensation. As I mentioned, there are salary caps in place for teachers in the district in which I live... An extraordinary teacher with stellar results in the classroom simply cannot be compensated at a rate above what is determined by the district/union agreement.

    What I'm really hearing from you is, as it appears to me, a reflection of the sentiment that teachers and the service they provide are not valuable.

    You mentioned in an earlier post that:

    Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

    Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?

    Please tell me where one obtains those fundamental skills?