close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

If this is a problem, what's the solution?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by PhoneCop, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

    Messages:
    4,646
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    The VPC claim that person's with concealed carry licenses have killed 9 police officers since 2007 got me to thinking.
    http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNZ1mgdeT4

    This is what I have found, help me determine if it is correct, and then brain storm a solution (if there is one).

    My best research indicates that (on average) about of 2.5% of the population of states which issue carry licenses have a carry license. Some states have more, others less.

    VPC says 9 officers killed by persons with a license to carry concealed.

    My best research shows that 145 officers total where feloniously killed during the same time (2007-57, 2008-41, 2009-47)

    If so, a simple look shows that the concealed carry population is over represented in killing officers. 2.5% of 145 officer's slain is 4.

    If VPC is correct, then during the 2007 - 2009 time frame "CHLers" were responsible for more than twice their percentage in killing officers.

    Is it a result of a particularly bad year or few years? Would a wider sample year change the percentages?

    Do we have an obligation to own this?

    What if anything can we do?


    (I don't know what percentage of the total population has a carry license or how we should account for portions of the population that for all statistical purposes don't kill officers (very young, in hospitals/hospice/comas, in prison(sorry, not counting Corrections Officers in this one, appreciate the job you do, don't get bent outta shape)

    Nor do I know how to account for states like Vermont and Alaska where everyone has a "de facto" concealed carry license or states where no one can have license. Include two states with 100% carry license and licensees are under represented.

    Factor in that we might need to be looking at the percentage of a population of a state COULD obtain one versus total population of the state and maybe licensees are very under-represented in killing officers.

    Though I'd prefer a tally of ZERO from licensees and for everyone for that matter.)

    Chime in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  2. malleable

    malleable

    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    What is VPC? do you have a link to the article?
     

  3. Dalton Wayne

    Dalton Wayne Epic mustache Millennium Member

    Messages:
    12,633
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 1999
    Location:
    Central Florida
  4. HerrGlock

    HerrGlock Scouts Out CLM

    Messages:
    23,802
    Likes Received:
    256
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    Welcome to GT :wavey:
     
  5. malleable

    malleable

    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
  6. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

    Messages:
    4,646
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
  7. malleable

    malleable

    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Thank you!
     
  8. HerrGlock

    HerrGlock Scouts Out CLM

    Messages:
    23,802
    Likes Received:
    256
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    This is Glock Talk. Get used to it :supergrin:
     
  9. GeorgeBurdell

    GeorgeBurdell

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Wow - no agenda there. So the logical thing to do is repeal CCWs because 9 LEOs have been killed by CCW permit holders since 2007? Don't get me wrong - 1 LEO killed is 1 to many. But I think we need to look at the agenda and ask some tough questions.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    During this time (from 2007 to the present) how many LEOs have been killed in the line of duty. By what causes? If we find that more than 9 were killed in car accidents, should we revoke driver&#8217;s licenses? If it turn out that more than 9 were killed by stroke or heart attack, should we required extra exercise? How many were killed by cancer? How many were killed by household accidents? Should we require LEOs to live at the station where it is safer? <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    During this time (from 2007 to the present) how many LEO lives (and other lives for that matter) have been saved by CCW holders? In how many of these incidents did the CCW holder fire his/her weapon? How many times were no shots fired?<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    These guys obviously have an agenda. And that agenda is to take away CCWs first and your guns second. Why? Who cares why? They might genuinely think they are protecting LEOs. They might be terrorists trying to create gun free zones so they can commit terrible crimes with no worry about repercussions. Their motive really doesn't matter. What does matter is that this is a blatant attack on freedom. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I'm sorry we don't live in a perfect world where we all don't just get along and sing happy songs while we just love and adore one another and pet kittens and puppies all day. Taking away CCWs and then guns won't turn the world into Utopia. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    The truth is this: Life is not perfect. Life is not fair. Bad things can happen to good people. Bad guys exist. And good people everywhere have the God given right (and duty) to defend themselves, their families, and their fellow human beings. ANY attempt to restrict this right should be resisted at all times. Freedom isn&#8217;t free. We all must defend it. <o:p></o:p>
     
  10. HerrGlock

    HerrGlock Scouts Out CLM

    Messages:
    23,802
    Likes Received:
    256
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    Immediately following every member of the VPC who agrees to be under an obligation to own any crime committed by anyone with their same last name. Exactly the same level of responsibility.
     
  11. FLGUY

    FLGUY Guest

    Your calculations are most likely skewed based on some of the unknown factors you mentioned in your post. Take my state, Florida for example. As of 1/31/2010 there were 854,655* CCW holders in Florida. The 2009 population of Florida was 18,537,969** which provides a ratio of CCW holders to population of 4.61%. According to the VPC report you cited there was 1 FL LEO killed in 2009 and 1 killed in 2008. Let's say that between 2007 and 2009 there was an average of maybe 700,000 CCW holders in FL. That would be a CCW/LEO kill ratio of 0.00029%.

    While I don't want to see any LEO or any other people killed by anyone, I feel the real numbers nationally are a bit lower than your initial analysis presents.

    Sources: *Florida CCW holders

    **Florida 2009 population
     
  12. ComeAndGetThem

    ComeAndGetThem

    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    Texico
    The murderers would have murdered whether they had a CHL or not. One has nothing to do with the other. Criminals carry guns.


    "100% of all heroin abusers drink milk or baby formula regularly in their first year of life."
     
  13. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

    Messages:
    4,646
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Very good.

    I assumed you mean by someone with a concealed carry license?

    I believe the correct comparision is to look at the number of Florida Officers murdered by licensees divided by the total # of officer's murder. This shows us the percentage of officer's killed by licensees.

    Then we look at the percentage of licensees of the population of Florida (4.61%).

    If 4.61 % of the population is killing 5% of the population then they represented normally. If 4.61% kill only 1% then they are under represented and this is good for the claim that licensees are more law abiding. If 4.61% kill 40% of the officer's this very troubling.

    I certainly hope so.


    Not related to this posted, just more numbers for reference.
    http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/355_law_enforcement_officers_killed_and_assaulted.html
     
  14. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

    Messages:
    24,530
    Likes Received:
    12,918
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2000
    Location:
    Upstate NY, USA
    What percent of CCW holders kill police officers?

    What percent of (insert control group) kill police officers?

    Is there a statistical difference between the two?

    If there is a statistical difference, can it be explained away? Such as, control for XYZ characteristics.

    What you will likely find is there is no statistical link between having a CCW and the likelihood of killing a police officer.

    Furthermore, statistics aside, people are individual, innocent until proven guilty, with inalienable rights.

    1 million people just like me could commit terrible crimes, but there is no way to infer that I would commit a crime, because I'm an individual. My actions are unique. My rights stand, no matter what others have done.
     
  15. FLGUY

    FLGUY Guest

    :thumbsup: You are 1000% correct. I really don't see what this analysis proves one way or another. It seemed to me that the OP was trying to make a case saying that CCW holders were more likely to kill a LEO than a non-CCW holder. BOLDERDASH!!!
     
  16. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

    Messages:
    6,777
    Likes Received:
    2,958
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Location:
    Doh ?
    I don't think the OP is TRYING to make the case that permit holders are more likely to kill LE. I think that this is where his combination of research and assumptions has lead him; and he is trying to develop a counter to the VPC propaganda using factual information.
     
  17. FLGUY

    FLGUY Guest

    Perhaps you have a point. I stand corrected.
     
  18. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

    Messages:
    21,816
    Likes Received:
    3,620
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Knock it off, you're starting to sound like my ex-wife....:steamed:

    :tongueout::rofl: Welcome to Glock Talk...

    Randy
     
  19. Moonfish

    Moonfish CLM

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Location:
    Texas (DFW)
    Any number coming out of the VPC is suspect, IMO. They base their information on news reports... which may not accurately represent the actual facts. I've also noticed that they lump gun ownership permit holders in with concealed carry permit holders by simply calling the collective group " permit holders".
     
  20. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    35,895
    Likes Received:
    8,899
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Location:
    Central Virginia