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If the police need it, I need it.

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by ithaca_deerslayer, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. BodymoreMurderland

    BodymoreMurderland

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    No many departments don't including the 8th largest police dept. in the country which I work for.
     
  2. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    I wore one for five years humping the brush. That was before they gave you cool T-shirts that didn't stick to your skin. You would pull out the vest a little bit and give yourself a steam bath for your face. When I would come home and drop the duty best, pul of the shirt, then the dump the vest, my wife would laugh at me like a dog with its head stuck in a bag when I would try to peal off that drenched T-shirt.

    So, body armor is not fun or glamorous. But, it is helpful when people run from danger and you run to it.
     

  3. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Well, the point was I was talking to my mom.

    Did you hear about the murderer who used a Bushmaster .223 to kill 2 firefighters and wound 2 more, while he burned down 7 houses in Webster NY the day before Christmas? I have relatives in that town.

    So I'm pretty sure my mom was't going to be much impressed with being able to wage war. But the police, they don't wage war. The police aren't out there spraying bullets murdering people. They just have guns to defend themselves. And guess what, mom, the police have "assault weapons." If they need them against the bad guys, then so do I.
     
  4. RMTactical

    RMTactical Battle Born CLM

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    Not one officer has a rifle? I find that hard to believe. No SWAT team?
     
  5. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    Sounds like he wanted an LA Riot, but no one would join him.

    If the Police just defended themselves, they would stay at the station or at home and not respond to calls.

    That is as silly as saying that the Military in in Afghanistan are only protecting themselves and not engaging in warfare.

    Very, very, silly.
     
  6. HexHead

    HexHead

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    That's all the argument the Left ever uses.
     
  7. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    Actually, you can argue that you need it more. How often are the police at the scene while a violent crime is being committed against a civilian victim? Very rarely.

    How often is a civilian victim at the scene while a violent crime is being committed against a civilian victim? Every single time. The counter-argument is that the police go to violent crime scense every day, while you may never be a victim or probably no more than a few times in your life...but you only get killed once.
     
  8. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    The great flaw in your argument is you use the statistics of anomalies while standing on the podium of being one to prove a point.
     
  9. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    The police defend themselves while they are doing their job. I defend myself while I am living my life.

    Again, I'm not looking for trouble but it may come to me. At that moment I need all the same guns the police need.
     
  10. CLoft239

    CLoft239 I Like Turtles

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    Um... how bout no. Every municipal department in the county I work for, including the sheriff's office I work for, either issues rifles, or allows the carry of a personally owned AR. I have yet to see a single department in my state that doesn't allow AR's as long as the officer has attended a rifle course.

    Sent from the Titanic. I named my phone "The Titanic" so when I plug it into the computer it says "The Titanic is syncing".
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
  11. OlliesRevenge

    OlliesRevenge

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    Thanks OP, for a well thought out argument of why we "need" semiautomatic rifles that accept high cap mags. Your post has apparantly been misunderstood by some, but I read you loud and clear.

    You never stated that your argument directly related to the 2A, you simply posted a good argument for "need" that could be related to an anti, and I agree wholeheartedly.

    Your argument has zero holes in it - Do we need handcuffs? No... but that is a non sequitur. We are not in the business of arresting bad guys and taking them to jail... police are. By the same logic, we don't need lights and sirens either. I can wear body armor if I choose to, but there is no requirement for me to do so.

    Police use high capacity semiautomatic rifles because that just happens to be the single most effective portable weapon a man can hold in his hands (there is a reason they give them to Marines, albeit the select fire version). The 2A protects our right to own such a weapon.

    Comparing a confrontation between police and bad guy -- and civilian and bad guy, the police actually have benefits the civilian doesn't. The police have radios, and can summon backup to support them -- the civilian is more likely to be taken by surprise when confronting the same bad guy police might have had to face-- and can merely call 911. Depending on where they are calling from, help may be a long time coming.

    I live in a rural area, and if bad guys decided to invade my home at 2:00AM, My 7 year old daughter and I are "on our own". The weapon I'll choose to grab during that moment of duress will be an AR-15. Why? 'Cause that is what police and military use during their moments of greatest duress... and I have much less tactical support than they do.
     
  12. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    While most people on both sides are pretty much limited to soundbite arguments, you do your side a massive diservice if you dont recognize that the opposition may very well have some very valid points. The left does.

    You can disagree with them (as I often do) but that doesnt change the validity of the arguement.

    For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.

    Someone wins the superbowl. After it is all over, there is a winner and they get the glory for that....but dont forget the hard battle that took place. Dont forget that the other side had some impressive performances as well. Dont forget that victory can often be by a slim margin.

    To sum it up, dont underestimate or dismiss the other side and just because "they do it" doesnt solve YOUR problems.
     
  13. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    If your argument is to be valid, Again, why do you not wear body armor all the time? If you make it just about the gun, your argument will be dismissed, and it is somewhat valid to do so.
     
  14. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    I know of agencies that do not allow rifles. I know of others that do not issue them. SAPD, (San Antonio 7th largest city in the country) does not issue them to Patrol and it was not until a few short years ago they started letting some Officers carry one. At some agencies, only supervisors can have a rifle.

    The idea that even among some departments, some officer cant have certain weapons weakens the hell out of the argument that "if they police can have them, so should I"...an anti cant destroy that by pointing out "in some cases Police dont...."
     
  15. Bruce M

    Bruce M

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    I agree and for a while I have thought that every time we summarily dismiss that side and their arguments and every time we resort to calling them names, we potentially weaken our ability to prosper in the ongoing debate.
     
  16. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.


    That is not anything close to valid unless taken only on the surface. In fact, this is a good example of the 'sound-bite' you refer to.
     
  17. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    YOU might not think it is valid but it is a mathematical reality that in many Nations with very strict gun control, you have very very low gun violence. It is anything but a soundbite, it is damned well vetted math.

    Of course you can present counters that argument, of course you can disagree with why that is....but you cant dismiss it. It is a powerful argument for the antis side.

    You have to accept that. Again, you can not dismiss it. This is a touchdown for the other team. You dont have to like it. It may sting. You may think it is unfair, but it happened. You have to deal with it and move on. You may still win the game but this moment is theirs.

    To be a total ass about this, one of the problem with most any issue is most of the people involved dont understand how to argue. They sure know how they feel but they simply have not developed the tools to understand the current state of both sides of the issue.
     
  18. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    Sure, we can spike the football using disingenuous argument comparing paternalistic social controlled homogeneous societies to the United States.
    It's not about ME or YOU, it's simply a bad argument, and not a check in the 'win' column, just as the same type of control NOT working in the former Soviet Union doesn't constitute a win for pro gun arguments.

    Part of good debate still requires a good argument, otherwise it's just soundbite material, as you put it.
     
  19. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    listen, if you honestly think that the other side has no good arguments you are far to emotionally invested in this to ever get it.

    Again, of course we can counter it, just like we can chase the runner, but on this one, he still scored. I get it, you disagree with the data point so much and think it doesnt apply here with such a passion you dont see it that way.

    A lot of people argue these things like Religion..."it (the way I see it) is right, just because it is."...people are going to be very quick to dismiss people who think that way and the opposition will point to such people to HARM your side.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
  20. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    A swing and a miss. You need the same guns the military need if you are going to be true to the intent of the 2A.