Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
33,227 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Whenever the issue of semi-auto reliability being related to user training, my thought is this:

To test your gun's reliability, you might consider handing it to the weakest newbie you can find. If the gun jams, limpwrists, or otherwise malfunctions with that person, maybe it will unexpectedly do the same in your hands?

Why should it malfunction in your hands, if you have the training and skill of a ninja seal wearing a walmart beret? Because if ever you were to be shot in a self-defense incident, maybe your typical target form, technique, and strength would be diminshed down to the level of a newbie :)

What say you?
 

·
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Joined
·
20,564 Posts
Whenever the issue of semi-auto reliability being related to user training, my thought is this:

To test your gun's reliability, you might consider handing it to the weakest newbie you can find. If the gun jams, limpwrists, or otherwise malfunctions with that person, maybe it will unexpectedly do the same in your hands?

Why should it malfunction in your hands, if you have the training and skill of a ninja seal wearing a walmart beret? Because if ever you were to be shot in a self-defense incident, maybe your typical target form, technique, and strength would be diminshed down to the level of a newbie :)

What say you?
I don't know that it's strength so much as it is some concept of how to hold the gun. It takes precious little strength to prevent a limp wrist.

I have held my Glocks as loose as I dare, just short of risking a tragedy due to losing control of muzzle direction, without inducing limp wristing. Just one finger around the grip, holding it just enough to point downrange. And that's with cheap weak bulk FMJ even

Something like this.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTb2yOq4t0I

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btn8kr1jgUA

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTb2yOq4t0I



As long as you put some mass from your hand/arm behind the gun and high enough on the grip, it seems to be fine. Now, if you go full crazy like some guy on YT years ago and basically grab the gun from 90 degrees off to the side with only your thumb behind the gun, well, you need a nice big heavy steel frame to hope to get that to work
 
  • Like
Reactions: ithaca_deerslayer

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,793 Posts
Whenever the issue of semi-auto reliability being related to user training, my thought is this:

To test your gun's reliability, you might consider handing it to the weakest newbie you can find. If the gun jams, limpwrists, or otherwise malfunctions with that person, maybe it will unexpectedly do the same in your hands?

Why should it malfunction in your hands, if you have the training and skill of a ninja seal wearing a walmart beret? Because if ever you were to be shot in a self-defense incident, maybe your typical target form, technique, and strength would be diminshed down to the level of a newbie :)

What say you?
I practice single hand, weak hand, shooting from retention and never have limp wrist malfs with my carry guns.

I frankly think it is nearly impossible to limp wrist a gun shooting premium SD style loading.
 

·
Wolverine
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Whenever the issue of semi-auto reliability being related to user training, my thought is this:

To test your gun's reliability, you might consider handing it to the weakest newbie you can find. If the gun jams, limpwrists, or otherwise malfunctions with that person, maybe it will unexpectedly do the same in your hands?

Why should it malfunction in your hands, if you have the training and skill of a ninja seal wearing a walmart beret? Because if ever you were to be shot in a self-defense incident, maybe your typical target form, technique, and strength would be diminshed down to the level of a newbie :)

What say you?
No. I have a G26 and a PT99 that I have never had a problem with. I have taken both of my daughters to the range and watched them limp wrist them while shooting. I corrected their grip and that was the end of it. I'm not worried about that being a problem for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
965 Posts
I have no intention of letting any novice shoot my guns. If a novice doesn't shoot a Glock correctly, that person is better off shooting a revolver.

On the other hand, I let one of my former co-workers, who was fairly new to shooting, shoot my Ruger SP-101 .357 Magnum snubbie with full-power 125 gr. SJHP fireballs. I wanted him to experience something different than 9mm nice recoil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33,227 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
No. I have a G26 and a PT99 that I have never had a problem with. I have taken both of my daughters to the range and watched them limp wrist them while shooting. I corrected their grip and that was the end of it. I'm not worried about that being a problem for me.
You gave the exact test I'm suggesting :)

Us Walmart Berets never seem able to duplicate the malfunctions on our own. I wonder if that is because we can't simulate being wounded. But hand the gun to your young daughters before their training was completed, and watch the malfuntions :)

The possibility of being wounded to the extent of shooting like a newbie may be in same realm of possibility as needing that 2nd back-up mag :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,577 Posts
My minimum for a carry gun (and magazines) is 500rds burp free at the range. After that, I shoot an IDPA match with it. If it gets through all that without any issues, it goes inside the belt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ithaca_deerslayer

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,509 Posts
"Newbie?" are we all some seasoned operators or something? I never call anyone "newbie." Everyone has to start somewhere. No need putting a stigma on it. I've taken people shoiting who did just fine after a few tips. Its a freaking pistol! We are nit operating the space shuttle. Sights level, firm grip, smooth squeeze on the trigger, it ain't brain surgery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33,141 Posts
I worry about having my grip compromised by injury when shooting my pistols to about the same extent I worry about having my ability to deliver a punch (or other hand strike) compromised by an injury.

It can happen. No realistic reason to deny it or pretend it can't happen. That's why I've trained to have options.

FWIW, even using a DA/DAO revolver doesn't make us immune from experiencing an injured/compromised grip problem.

For example, even a momentary unexpected injury (impact, etc) which hinders full index finger control and function might result in an unexpectedly short-stroked DA trigger during trigger recovery, which might create some inopportune mechanical conditions that prevent another trigger press.

Having some knowledge and experience in what might happen, under the worst conditions, and how to deal with the results, is probably better than assuming, hoping and pretending that only optimal things may occur. ;)

There's arguably some practical wisdom to be found in the line of thought, "If it can happen, it will happen, sometime", and we risk ignoring it at our peril.

Of course, on the other hand, there's probably no shortage of folks who seem to only "like" preparing for one type of problem, or only those problems for which they've become adept at addressing, of those who won't seek out more experienced people to better educate them about the things they don't know, but which might happen.

One of the things that makes me shudder, as an instructor, is the way some folks don't take the necessary steps to maximize safety when devising some "practice" method of problem-solving and reactionary drills. Getting hurt during training is really, really counter-productive (and it understandably drives the HR/RM people nuts).
 

·
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Joined
·
20,564 Posts
I worry about having my grip compromised by injury when shooting my pistols to about the same extent I worry about having my ability to deliver a punch (or other hand strike) compromised by an injury.

It can happen. No realistic reason to deny it or pretend it can't happen. That's why I've trained to have options.

FWIW, even using a DA/DAO revolver doesn't make us immune from experiencing an injured/compromised grip problem.

For example, even a momentary unexpected injury (impact, etc) which hinders full index finger control and function might result in an unexpectedly short-stroked DA trigger during trigger recovery, which might create some inopportune mechanical conditions that prevent another trigger press.

Having some knowledge and experience in what might happen, under the worst conditions, and how to deal with the results, is probably better than assuming, hoping and pretending that only optimal things may occur. ;)

There's arguably some practical wisdom to be found in the line of thought, "If it can happen, it will happen, sometime", and we risk ignoring it at our peril.

Of course, on the other hand, there's probably no shortage of folks who seem to only "like" preparing for one type of problem, or only those problems for which they've become adept at addressing, of those who won't seek out more experienced people to better educate them about the things they don't know, but which might happen.

One of the things that makes me shudder, as an instructor, is the way some folks don't take the necessary steps to maximize safety when devising some "practice" method of problem-solving and reactionary drills. Getting hurt during training is really, really counter-productive (and it understandably drives the HR/RM people nuts).

What steps do you suggest people take in case their hand function is compromised to the point that their semi auto pistol 'limp wrists'?

Do you have any recommendation on how we can intentionally (and safely) hold the pistol to induce these malfunctions on the range?

Would the immediate action for such an event differ from the remedial action for a fail to extract/feed malfunction due to ammo or magazine, IE, tap/rack/assses?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,632 Posts
A quote regarding limp-wristing from an instructor on another forum...

"I see it a lot in my novice classes from people who don't have a clue how to hold a handgun. They squeeze the grip until their hands turn blue, but they don't provide a firm arm behind it for the gun to recoil against. I have seen people providing so little control that the M&P 22 would flip up to 45 degrees.

I have never seen an experienced shooter truly limp-wrist. Even when they hold the gun lightly with their fingers, the thumb behind the grip is still attached to an arm firmly locked as the experienced shooter always does.The test of having the experienced shooter hold the gun lightly does NOT reproduce the problem the novice has."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33,227 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
What steps do you suggest people take
From my point of view, the first steps are in the equipment selection and testing. Some guns are more prone to limpwristing than others. And some guns are slightly out of tune.

If someone teaches and has a lot of newbies trying out guns, for example, they might get a sense of which of their guns are more likely to have reliability issues when fired with less than optimal form :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33,227 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
"Newbie?" are we all some seasoned operators or something? I never call anyone "newbie." Everyone has to start somewhere. No need putting a stigma on it. I've taken people shoiting who did just fine after a few tips. Its a freaking pistol! We are nit operating the space shuttle. Sights level, firm grip, smooth squeeze on the trigger, it ain't brain surgery.
I believe "newbie" is shorthand for "A person who is new to shooting sports and is not yet familiar with guns, and has not yet earned the distinguished rank of Walmart Beret, nor that of Ninja Warrior."
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top