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I want to make sure everyone following the news now is aware of this:

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Will Beararms, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. DreamWeaver88

    DreamWeaver88 ...............

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    That's a pretty specific job title. An ATF agent saying he won't enforce the new gun laws would be bad for his job security. Not so much for an everyday police officer, who has much more going on that just enforcing gun laws.
     
  2. Glock20 10mm

    Glock20 10mm Use Linux!

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    Fulfilling an oath does not mean blind obedience. Sorry but a line must be drawn somewhere and those that have stepped up and said they will not enforce confiscation orders have drawn the line. They understand that the Constitution outweighs any laws that VIOLATE IT. They understand their oath much better than those that won't disobey.
     

  3. Glock20 10mm

    Glock20 10mm Use Linux!

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    Two completely different scenarios that do not line up. If you have a moral objection to the work you are doing then you walk. But if you have taken an oath to uphold not only the law but to support and defend the Constitution then you should understand that the supreme law IS the Constitution and it comes first and that ANY law that violates the Constitution is NULL AND VOID and can be rendered so by honorable men and women stepping up and NOT carrying out unlawful orders.

    I am surprised at how many Americans don't know this or realize it.
     
  4. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    I'm surprised how many, specifically guys who like to champion the constitution. Continually fail to understand that how they feel about a law has no bearing upon it being constitutional.


    I think any gun control is wrong, but that doesn't immediately make any gun control unconstitutional.
     
  5. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    Do you believe any gun control is unethical or morally wrong?


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  6. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    I believe it is unethical as the basis for restriction isn't based upon safety or any other realistic goal, but because they are "scary" and were ill thought out back door attempts to curb crime.
     
  7. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    So now that we have established that you believe it is unethical, if you were given the order to be part of a military unit involved in confiscation would you do it?

    I guess the question do you stand by your ethics or do you not have true ethics, only ethics when it is convenient?


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  8. M&P Shooter

    M&P Shooter Metal Member

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    What if the current administration decided to abolish the 2nd Amendment and it passed but the people refused to obey such a act of tyranny . Would you as a soldier if ordered to go house to house and kill Americans to take their weapons follow that order?
     
  9. skinny99

    skinny99 Crew Chief

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    That is the real question for all LEO's. If/when the time comes are you willing to change your entire life to stand up for what you believe in? Some will but a lot won't. They will not want to change their comfy little lives or deprive their families of the things they have become accustomed too. Because their lives will change. Good jobs won't be that easy to come by. There will be others just like them competing for the same jobs, with the same skill sets.

    This is worst case scenario but very plausible.
     
  10. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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    So by your standards then, a lot of Hitler's men did a great job, and their secured jobs at auschwitz were justified, because they followed orders and enforced rule of law?

    Interesting logic.
     
  11. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    Sometimes changes in employment situations are better for people.

    When I refused something unethical I had to go home and tell my wife why we would be eating my ethics for dinner. That was, especially for my age, a very high paying job that i now longer had. In the end, it turned out much better.


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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  12. sheriff733

    sheriff733 NRA LIFE MEMBER

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    I know he doesn't mean it like that, but this is exactly what I kept imagining.

    Good post.
     
  13. racerford

    racerford

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    A lot are Sheriffs and they are elected. The courts have upheld that the police have discretion. They do not have to enforce every law all the time, as they have limited resources. Prosecutors do as well.

    The president has publicly stated they will not enforce certain immigration laws in certain cases. Has he been fired? Has he been impeached? Has the head of the immigration department been fired for following that order?

    They are following the path of the President of the United States. If they are wrong, then he is wrong. Remove them all. Or deal with it. A law does not have to ruled unconstitutional to be BE unconstitutional. This is evidenced by the fact that once it is ruled unconstitutional it is null and void from the date of passage, not from the date of ruling. This topic was discussed by our founding fathers.

    Really all the Sheriff can do is not arrest or not report people for those actions. The DA decides who gets prosecuted. So you could go file a complaint when someone breaks those laws the Sheriff refuses to act on and see if the DA will prosecute based on the evidence you bring. Good Luck with that, it might make you very unpopular in some circles.
     
  14. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    I don't see any ability to construe reasonable restriction to all out confiscation.

    If I were ordered to do something to do something i thought illegal I would refuse until I could get clarification. If it were determined legal but something I found immoral, I would refuse, and initiate my chapter.
     
  15. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA Get off my lawn

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    I'm not reading thru 100 replies, but we tried and hung German soldiers that were "just following orders." You ARE required to have SOME brains.
     
  16. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    Yes, exactly, they stood up and said "this is wrong, we don't believe in it "

    Quit trying to grasp at straws. It won't work, and it's a terrible comparison.
     
  17. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    However, you and October rust evidently are not required any to post....
     
  18. beatcop

    beatcop

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    Is this the fantasy knee deep in brass thread? ATF kicking in doors thread? Can I come in?

    This has nothing to do with guns, it has to do with Constitutional law, interpretations by the Supreme Court and enforcement. It could be any subject...abortion, voter rights, eminent domain...whatever.

    When the ruling comes down, that's the "new" law of the land. Done.

    Won't like it, but those are the cards we're dealt. Unless you plan on being the first to revolt, you'll deal with it like everyone else...wake up, pants on, go to work. Unless the day of revolt is here...and it's not here.

    AK will make his choices when the time comes...or doesn't as is more likely.

    We are indulging in fantasy due to total disgust with the politicians.
     
  19. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    Acceptable answer.

    The caveat that I would say is sometimes you don't have the luxury of time to have something "clarified" if it is illegal.

    But will you agree that illegal and immoral are not the same? Would you also agree that legal and moral are not the same?


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  20. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    Beatcop, read my post about shipping failing medical devices. It is not as much fantasy as you think.

    Imagine, if someone that knew what was going on inside Enron would have stood up and said "this is wrong, I won't participate"

    This is not about LEO. Not about 2A. This is about doing the right thing when it is much easier/lucrative to do the wrong thing.


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