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I think the NFA is Unconstitutional

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Kingarthurhk, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. kenpoprofessor

    kenpoprofessor

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    So, just like I said, you're content with the oppression simply because you've been conditioned to think so. Because it's already happened, then we now have to keep the status quo???

    This is truly a circuitous debate point. It's the equivalent of saying, "Well, the barn door was open and the horse got out", but never bothering to retrieve the lost horse.

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  2. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    Or Switzerhland where adults are required to own a pistol and a fully automatic rifle. [sarcasimon] I hear the crime rate and death toll is off the hook.[/sarcasim off]

    Or how about Israel? They seem to be doing okay with their citizens owning fully automatic Uzis.

    It is only the "land of the free" who guaranteed that freedom in the Constitution and didn't even have a standing full time army until 1812, but relied on its citizen army the same as Switzerland does.

    But, now were are all too stupid to be trusted with our own Second Amendment?

    I say bring back the silencers, short barreled rifles, shotguns, and fully automatic weapons. They are all out there. The only forlks worried about all the tax stamps, red tape, and cumbersome legislation about storage or the folks who obey the law and have a monumental ammount of income to afford the whole mess.

    The criminals on the other hand? They already have all these.

    We hurtle multi-ton vehicles at break neck speeds at each other all over the United States with a lot of barely literate people behind the wheel. There are far more abuses, fatalties, and injuries with those instruments than there are with firerams. Yet, our own government doesn't trust us with our own Second Amendment rights?
     

  3. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    Most definitely.
     
  4. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    The Founding Fathers did not agreed with each other 100% and debated fiercely the role of government in peoples life. Debates like this have always been with us and always should. Nothing un-American or communist about doing that friend.

    Stalin or Lenin, extreme reach between what is being discussed here and that IMO. I am glad that the vast majority of folks in America are more open minded than that. Again this mindset of agree with me totally or your a "__________" is simplistic at best. :wavey:
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  5. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    It ain't so.

    The rise of CCW nationwide in the last 20 years is proof of that. As it the rise in firearm ownership. Good Lord man you can buy a AR15 ("evil" 30 round mag and all) at Wal-Mart with you Frosted Flakes these days. Hardly a nation abdicating their personal security and responsibility. :wavey:
     
  6. kenpoprofessor

    kenpoprofessor

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    Won't argue the point about the FF's because it's true. They did however, bring about a new era of liberty and freedom when they finally got it all down on paper, then signed it.

    The IRS didn't exist when the FF's were alive, so, now that it's established, should we also let them run roughshod over us with impunity as they do now??

    It's the same argument.

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
  7. LawScholar

    LawScholar

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    This isn't mentioned enough. The Founding Fathers were not some solid block of the same opinions. In fact the Constitution as drafted did not even HAVE a bill of rights, they threw it in at the last minute to appease the Antifederalists.

    "Shall not be infringed" without anything else is an argument as devoid of reason and logic as "Guns kill people".

    I don't consider being okay with heavier regulations on full-auto and explosives "used to the oppression", I consider it well-reasoned restriction just like background checks. Yeah, if we must go there, I trust my neighbors with AR-15s and Glocks, but not with Stingers and RPG-7s. People are pretty darn stupid these days, they can't control their waistlines or balance a checkbook. At a certain point we have to step back from the hard line and realize the total absurdity of privately owned nukes and 155mm artillery.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  8. kenpoprofessor

    kenpoprofessor

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    But what's the actual percentage of citizens exercising this "limited" and "infringed" right we have???

    C'mon, don't be coy, we know that most are not gun owners, most gun sales are to people who already own a multitude of firearms already.

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
  9. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    Where does voting come into this debate? What are you referring to in this debate? Who are "those people" you reference? :dunno:

    Who is talking about it being a privilege for "some"? You have the same rights as anyone else regarding this unless you did something to lose them. And where did I advocate bans? I am simply saying and will continue to say that the 2nd A is no more all inclusive than the 1st A.

    It all boils down to how you define "Arms" in the 2nd A, some think it means anything, others like me think it is limited in it's meaning. As the men who wrote it are all dead it has been and will continue to be a ongoing debate I guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  10. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    Dupe Post.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  11. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    Is this your way of minimizing the Bill of Rights as vestigle?

    I know, plain speach in law confuses attorneys.

    I agree with its original intent, which was to allow the citizenry to have the club of being able to overthrow oppression. That is what the Declaration of Independance was all about. That is what the Revolutionary War was all about. If the people did not have the same access to the military weapons of the then most powerful army in the world, we would still be a colony of the UK.

    So, there has been a lot of infringement going on for quite sometime. From the 1930's to present. But, that is not suprising considering that was the birth of the progressives.

    The reason you are timid about such things is because you have been raised in a progressive environment where the Second Amendment has been unconstitutionally stripped of its intent and meaning. There are plenty of places across the world that don't even have a Second Amendment Right that are less oppressive about what their citizenry can possess.
     
  12. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    Who knows what the actual percentage is or ever was for that matter? How are you going to compare percentages you have no ideal about? You asked so you tell me what percentage of firearms sales are to folks already owning firearms and what percentage to first time buyers. I do not know myself.

    I would add that it really does not matter, you implication that American society is somehow turning over all personal responsibility for security to the government is not shown in the economics of the firearm industry. Look at the boom in sales of small compact carry handguns and ARs for example.
     
  13. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    Citizens vs standing armies via 1770s and same thing via 2010s are vastly different. For example you name one military piece of equipment in the 1770s that could not be fully countered by militia forces. There is not one. Try the same exercise in 2012 and we can all name dozens upon dozens. If you really want to change the laws you had better come up with a more reasonable and realistic debate point than that. That one will get exactly zero in a open debate, in court, in any legislature or with the American people IMO.

    Who is timid about the 2nd A? Because I don't believe what you do about it's meaning in 2012 I am timid? :dunno:
     
  14. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    If you think the founders included the 2nd amendment for the purpose of protecting hunting rights your argument makes sense. If however, you think the founders included the 2nd amendment for the purpose of keeping tyranny at bay I find your argument lacking.
     
  15. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    I'm sorry, I forgot it is 2012. You're absolutely right, all your rights under the Bill of Rights should be null and void; because, after all they were written by men in silly looking wigs in the 18th century. So, I guess, you aren't allowed to have an opinion, because that opinion might be dangerous, you should expect to have law enforcement search your home at will, and there are some displaced veterans that need quartering. Afterall, it is 2012, right?

    The technology for electronic surveillance has increased, so you shouldn't expect privacy in your own home. Oh, and there has been a lenghty war that has been going on longer than that pesky 1776 and 1812 thing, so there are some troops that need to be housed. Lucky for you, you have extra rooms. But, hey, as part of your patriotic duty you can sleep on the couch and the living room floor and they can have your rooms, right?

    Oh, and forget not incriminating yourself, if you get picked up, because that is antiquated as well, Also, you have an unpopular religious choice, so you are going to have to attend whatever relgions the state has chosen.

    I mean, for heaven's sake it is 2012 afer all.:upeyes:
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  16. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    If you think the 2nd A is all inclusive (simply no restrictions) do you think all of the amendments are? I know this is a gun forum and thus the 2nd A is the most talked about but I am curious how you and others feel about the others.
     
  17. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    Let's focus on the second for a moment. What do you believe the purpose of the 2nd amendment is, hunting and sporting purposes or for keeping tyranny at bay?

    If the purpose is to protect hunting do we need anything other than shotguns?
    If it is meant to protect us from the tyranny of our government then we should have weapons equal to that of our government. I would draw the line at individual ownership of ICBM's but I think each state should have control of one.
     
  18. kenpoprofessor

    kenpoprofessor

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    [​IMG]

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
  19. Ruggles

    Ruggles

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    What are you rambling about? Nice little rant there but sadly for you based on nothing I said or even implied :rofl:

    I did notice you did not answer any of my question though :tongueout:
     
  20. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

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    You're the one that stated the Bill of Rights has an expiration date because it is 2012.:supergrin: