Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner
1 - 20 of 56 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,673 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
and this isn't meant to be trolling...Russ has enough to do, and if he considers this inappropriate, I hope he'll close it.


So, this concerns the whole CCW movement. One of the biggest reasons to carry that is put forth by the CCW'rs is this:

If a bad guy starts to shooting a place up, a person carrying would have a chance to stop him, using his gun. Perfect examples of where tragedies could have been stopped sooner exist in the VA Tech shooting, and the infamous Luby's incident in Texas.

Most everyone here seems to agree that is a valid argument, and that a motivated person with a legally carried gun could stop an active shooter incident (there's the mall shooting in Utah, but that's a bad example, since the good guy was an off duty cop)

But, I see a lot of people in this forum (including folks who get stupid, and get threads locked) stating they would NOT get involved in such an incident, and only use their gun to defend.

You know, there's a lot of situations where one should NOT try to play hero, and should just be a good witness. Generally speaking, that should be the course taken, and I have no problem with that.

But, there have been numerous "what if" situations, or actual incidents posted, where GT'ers have stated they would not get involved. That's what I don't understand.

If someone is fighting (simple fight, not on the ground being kicked, no weapons, etc), then a simple call to 911 would suffice. No real need to be further involved. But, if a guy is getting the crap stomped out of him, and need immediate help to save him from death or serious physical injury, why would you not get involved? Isn't that one of the very reasons that CCW'ers advocate getting a permit for?

Seriously...I completely understand why some folks don't want to get along. But, there seems to be a surplus of people who are either too scared (be they scared of physical harm, or of being arrested/sued) or simply too callous to do anything when a situation calls for more than 911.

Now, I'm not suggesting that folks strap up and pretend to be their favorite comic book hero, or some type of vigilante. But, if you see a guy getting attacked by numerous other people, there's a good bet it's NOT the police doing it. At least, not uniformed officers. Granted, they could be plainclothes guys, but you'd see badges, and hear a lot of "Stop resisting" being yelled. Pretty self evident that it'd be a police operation.

So, why not help? Yeah, you don't know the whole situation...but helping could be just yelling at them to stop, calling the police, and if necessary, intervening with a drawn gun. Every situation is different, and I have no desire to "what if" every single possibility, but intervening doesn't mean you have to automatically shoot the person you're dealing with.

Here's my point of view:

As many of you know, I'm an officer. I carry a pretty little badge, and a neato gun off duty. I've had to intervene in more than one incident off duty, and to be honest, it usually involves calling for an on-duty unit to handle the situation. After all, I'm NOT being paid at that moment, and there's always someone around who IS being paid to handle it.

But, if there's an issue where someone is being/might be hurt, then that's a different story. Yeah, I have a badge, and that makes me "different", but it doesn't change how I act while carrying a gun. If all I need to do is be a good witness, and call things into the guys who are currently working, then that's what I do. If the situation warrants a more involved action from me, well, I can do that too.

What's more is that while I'm an officer, I don't work for the local police department. I'm a corrections officer with the local jail. That title can be a bit misleading, as many corrections departments aren't fully sworn. We are, and are more like the deputy sheriff's that run jails around the country, with arrest powers on or off duty. But, fact is, I'm NOT a road officer. As such, my agency typically frowns on us inserting ourselves into situations better handled by the "real" police. So, we don't need to work traffic accidents or cite every clown with a loud car stereo, but we're expected to act if necessary with incidents that are somewhat larger in scope.

So yeah, I get it. I don't play cop, even though I can. My attitude is, there's always someone else who is getting paid to handle the incident. That is, as long as there is no one getting hurt (or property damaged, but that's not relevant to the thread as concerns the use of deadly force). But, it's a whole different ballgame with some of the scenarios that have been posted. Things like women being forced into a car....yeah, it "could" have been a cop, but not likely. If an officer is fighting with someone, listen carefully...you'll hear sirens from every direction.

I guess I just feel more responsibility to help people who are in trouble. It's not "playing hero" to me, if you step in to save a person from being seriously injured by people kicking the crap out of him. It's doing your civic duty as a member of society. We should ALL try to help the next guy out...most of the time, that means holding a door open for someone, or letting them into traffic....but sometimes, it means putting YOUR ass on the line to help THEM. Doesn't matter if they would have done the same. Working in the jail, I help people who wouldn't stop to piss on me if I was on fire....matter of fact, they'd pour more gas on me.

But, we all have a duty to each other (within reason, of course), and I've always heard the (valid) argument that a legal CCW'er could help to stop a violent situation. Hell, I've BEEN a vocal part of that argument, as I had a permit for 4 years prior to earning my badge. But, it seems that some folks have a "me and mine" attitude. I truly hope that if THEY need help, the guy (or gal) next to them who COULD help, does so...instead of *****ing out and running off.

Just remember...it could be you that is getting stomped. A couple of coworkers got jumped in a parking lot years ago. Having guns did them no good, as they were ambushed, and hit over the head with rebar. Once down, they were stomped on bad enough to hospitalize them for a brief while. So, guns did THEM no good, but a passerby could've helped (none did...don't think there were any, to be honest).

Point is, carrying a gun doesn't make you invulnerable (see the hundreds of cops who've died, and they have both guns and bullet resistant vests) and won't stop someone from kicking your ass, if they try hard enough. Maybe you'll be the one who needs help, and someone will stand up for YOU. Could be, they might save your life. Shouldn't you do the same?
 

·
Scouts Out
Joined
·
23,815 Posts
No matter what you do or do not do, never, EVER outrun or outpace your guardian angel and/or your comfort level. That's when people get hurt really fast and when you bring a firearm into play, losing may very well mean death.

Think about that, too.
 

·
l'Italia s'è desta
Joined
·
7,576 Posts
Herr Glock has hit the nail on the head.

Many of us say what we would or would not do, but, in fact, none of us really know what we would do in a given situation. There are too many variables to be covered in one of those little "what if" scenarios.

I think each of us would help to the extent that our abilities allow. At least, I'd like to think that's the case. But actually saying exactly how we would react in one of these scenarios, without really being there in the moment, is speculation at best, and possibly just fantasy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,673 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No matter what you do or do not do, never, EVER outrun or outpace your guardian angel and/or your comfort level. That's when people get hurt really fast and when you bring a firearm into play, losing may very well mean death.

Think about that, too.

I do....

I have four young children to be a father to, and they take priority over ANYONE. No matter what it takes, I'm coming home to them.

But, there are sometimes situations that occur, where deadly force may be required.

I understand the comment about "comfort level", too. You don't want to interrupt a beat down involving a large number of attackers, if you're not confident in how to handle it. Best thing to do, WOULD be to dial 911.

But, so many people in here have blunty stated they don't care, they're not gonna get involved unless it's a personal attack on them or their family.

To have the means* to help keep someone from hurting another person, and not use it is simply antisocial behavior, and borders on the criminal. It's definitely morally and ethically wrong...




* In using this term, I mean to describe a person who is able bodied, has a gun, and is comfortable with the use of said gun. For someone who is unsure, possibly older or has a physical disability...well, you'll just get yourself hurt to no good purpose. Many people who carry are healthy, able bodied folks. Many aren't, and that's OK if they don't intervene. I'm not asking for miracles, just for folks who CAN help, to do so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,673 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think each of us would help to the extent that our abilities allow.
That's exactly my point. There have been numerous posts to the contrary, both in this forum, and to a lesser extent, in GNG.

Many, many posters have outright said they WILL not help, unlesss THEY are directly affected. That's MY problem with the whole "a CCW'er could help". It seems no one wants to step up and do it...just ride on the coattails of people who really would.
 

·
Scouts Out
Joined
·
23,815 Posts
That's exactly my point. There have been numerous posts to the contrary, both in this forum, and to a lesser extent, in GNG.

Many, many posters have outright said they WILL not help, unlesss THEY are directly affected. That's MY problem with the whole "a CCW'er could help". It seems no one wants to step up and do it...just ride on the coattails of people who really would.
Haven't you just summed up why military and police recruitment numbers are low? :supergrin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
It's called human nature. Everybody reacts differently. Some feel very strongly that they carry solely to protect themselves and their loved ones and nothing else, and that's fine. I'm not a big fan of third party intervention either, much too easy to misinterpret what may actually be going on, so it's better to call the police and let them handle it, especially since that is their job. But if an individual is standing in a mall or college, or school, or church spraying bullets, you can be sure I will put him down, and put a stop to it. Otherwise what's the point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,673 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Haven't you just summed up why military and police recruitment numbers are low? :supergrin:
What, that America is made up of a bunch of sissies, and that there are very few real men (and women) who will "man up" and do what needs to be done?


I guess I should count myself fortunate to work with a number of people who will do something....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
I think that some people's unwillingness to jump into the fray is misconstrued as selfishness or not caring about others in society. Not everyone of course because some people just might not care about their fellow citizens. As it's been said, everyone is different and has different responsibilities that weigh on them.

I'm sure being a police officer gives you a unique perspective and the experience to know that you can step into a dangerous situation and handle it. For those of us who don't have that training and haven't been in those situations in the course of our daily lives, a dangerous situation may give us pause to consider the repercussions not only for ourselves but for our families. Is the risk worth the reward. I know that sounds flippant and inpersonal but it's how we all think on a base level. Is the risk of intervening (and perhaps being critically injured or worse) worth the reward (i.e. being able to sleep at night etc). For some it is not going to be and I don't believe you can blame them for making that determination. That's the great thing about this country, no one can force their moral judgetments on you (the exception being if you commit a crime of course).

That being said I think we all would wish that if we or our families were being attacked and in need of help that someone would step in. I would wish someone such as yourself to step in if my wife were being attacked and I was not around or if I was being attacked and unable to defend myself. But I would not begrudge you if you thought about it for a moment and weighed your abilities to help along with your responsibilities to your family. I would do the same and determine at that time whether I felt I could act or not and whether I could live with myself if I didn't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
What, that America is made up of a bunch of sissies, and that there are very few real men (and women) who will "man up" and do what needs to be done?

I think its more a factor of the "me" thinking that has become more prevalent in the latest generations. In our society folks are becoming used to immediate gratification and accustomed to the feelings of entitlement. So they don't feel the tug of 'service' that we did/do.

I don't know what will come of it, I just do what I have to in order to live with myself.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,557 Posts
You have to take apart every situation and wonder if your capabilities would help or not. We don't wear kevlar vests. Many of us don't carry reloads. A revolver with a reload is only 10 rds. You can't fire and take cover and have any left.

There are also legal issues we can get into and to many people sitting in jail for 30 years is not worth the risk of helping others. The law makers have made it so in many situations I would not intervene for fear of the law.

One big reason why crime is still as high as it is is most people do not CCW. The tradition of everyone protecting them self has gone away from the average citizen and they now are comfortable relying on others to try to help them. So you are somewhat correct. Unless someone was directly attacked who had a CCW permit nothing would have changed. However the chances of it happening would have tipped the scale a bit ....possibly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Before you decide to intervene you may want to read this.

Commentary by Evan Marshall

Strada Man

[Edited by RussP to add linked article]
THE DANGERS OF INTERVENTION

There has been a lot of space devoted in the Stopping Power Message Board and other message boards to the presentation of hypothetical situations and a request for solutions. The problem with such imaginary situations is that there is none of the untidiness and ambiguity that exists in the real world.
Please understand that I’m not ridiculing those who present such situations or those who attempt to solve them. I consider those who post on this board as friends I haven’t met yet. As your friend I feel a moral responsibility to share my observations based on my actual experiences in real incidents. I don’t want to see good guys and gals get their selves in a jam by jumping into situations that are unclear and fraught with danger.
Let me be perfectly frank. Those who think that intervention will bring fame, honors, glory, etc., are delusional. I once prevented the rape of a woman by butt stroking her attacker with a shotgun while he was in the act of penetrating her. Weeks later she made an excessive force complaint against me. She thought I should have been more restrained in my behavior! On another occasion, my partner and I chased a holdup man into a store where he took a woman hostage. He then threatened to kill her (he had just shot two people in a bank and we believed him!). My partner shot the bad guys three times. One of those bullets slightly grazed the woman’s finger and she sued us for endangering her!
If the rescued individual doesn’t make life miserable for you in the courts, they just might kill you. I’m aware of four instances where officers responded to a domestic violence situation and when the wife realized the breadwinner was going to jail she assaulted and killed her would-be rescuers.
My Tac Unit partner and I backed up a precinct unit on a domestic assault arrest. As the husband was being handcuffed the wife disappeared down the hallway. I motioned to my partner and we followed her down the hall with guns drawn. We found her in the bedroom loading a Winchester .30-.30 lever action rifle. We quickly disarmed and cuffed her. As we brought her into the living room a precinct sergeant ordered us to let her go. When we refused to do so, he attempted to remove her from our custody. When told him that if he didn’t back off we would arrest him, he left to complain to our supervisors.
If ingratitude isn’t enough we need to understand that things are almost never what they seem. What appears to be a car jacking may be the attempt by a father to recover a child from a noncustodial mother. Our intervention may not only be ill advised but we may be acting in violation of a court order. The fact that we are unaware of a court order will not save the day.
Even if the situation is exactly as it appears and you’re even in accordance with the law, you need to understand one simple fact-the law is what the local prosecutor says it is. Do you really want to spend 7 years in jail waiting for an appeal to be heard and your conviction overturned?
I once got sued for in excess of $100,000 for handcuffing a suspect. The city settled out of court even though my actions were totally legal. Anybody who read about this settlement in the paper would assume I was guilty of inappropriate behavior or some illegality. The city paid the settlement and provided legal counsel. Had I been acting as a private citizen I would have subjected my family to decades of poverty in order to pay the judgment and attorney fees.
Situations that involve significant injury or death are frightenly expensive. My partners and I were sued for $17.5 million dollars in the fatal shooting of a holdup man. The legal fees alone would have run into seven figures. We were accused of being blood thirsty, trigger-happy racist cops. The media conveniently forgot we had intervened in the severe beating and robbery of an elderly woman.
All that being said and experienced, I continued to intervene. However, people should be reminded I was a cop-it was my job. I spent 20 years going in harms way for total strangers. Would I do that today? Probably not. I no longer have the deep pockets of the City of <st1:city> <st1:place>Detroit</st1:place> </st1:city> behind me. Sound callous? Well, would you be willing to jeopardize everything you own and your family’s security for a total stranger? Would you be willing to lose your home, your cars, and your retirement to play Knight of the Round Table?
Apparently some people are certainly willing to fantasize about intervening in a hypothetical situation. Some may consider this harmless musing, but I find it troubling. Tactical planning involves assessing all the potential problems carefully and realistically looking at the cost of such intervention. Role-playing or gaming looks at it through rose colored glasses and ignores the cold hard reality of a person’s involvement in a deadly force event.
I carry a gun to protect myself and the people I love from the Monsters that roam the earth. When I’m away from those that mean everything to me, I carry so I can return to them. Are there circumstances where I would intervene to help a stranger? Yes, but such intervention would be on my terms at my pace. I am not going to jump into a situation with gun drawn.
Rather I would seek cover and carefully evaluate the totality of the circumstance. When I was convinced I knew what is really going on I would respond with the minimum amount of force necessary whether that required drawing my cell phone or my pistol. If all we have is a pistol we have severely limited options. I carry three pistols, oc, cell phone, and a flashlight, and I am a PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor. I am willing and trained to respond with the appropriate level of force even if that is “only” a command voice. I understand the force continuum and know what the appropriate level force is in a given situation. Ignorance of such critical parameters can have horrific consequences.
Those who think the mere display of a weapon will stop hostilities are naïve in the extreme. The same people we will be confronting know what an appropriate level of force is and when we make outlandish or unjustified threats we’ll show our true colors. These people can tell when we’re serious and we will quickly find ourselves disarmed and in real trouble.
Again, we need to avoid rushing in where Angels fear to tread. Remember the most endangered species is good guys and gals. Go with God.
Evan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
You have to take apart every situation and wonder if your capabilities would help or not. We don't wear kevlar vests. Many of us don't carry reloads. A revolver with a reload is only 10 rds. You can't fire and take cover and have any left.

There are also legal issues we can get into and to many people sitting in jail for 30 years is not worth the risk of helping others. The law makers have made it so in many situations I would not intervene for fear of the law.

One big reason why crime is still as high as it is is most people do not CCW. The tradition of everyone protecting them self has gone away from the average citizen and they now are comfortable relying on others to try to help them. So you are somewhat correct. Unless someone was directly attacked who had a CCW permit nothing would have changed. However the chances of it happening would have tipped the scale a bit ....possibly.
Dang straight on the nail right there. If an off duty LEO tries to break up a scene and has to draw down and blast some baddies, the immediate reaction and bias is going to be "oh well he was a cop, and he's a cop whether he's on or off shift so of course he needed to help and things got out of hand. But seeing as how those same people (liberals:upeyes:) also think the only ones that should have guns ARE LEO's, the same people would react and bias toward, the tried and true "this vigilante was looking for trouble and now 3 baby daddy's aren't gonna get to go home to their bastard children and sell some more crack." Obviously it's not always like this, just look at the man that pasted those two crooks down in I think TX, after they robbed is neighbor's house. No matter what they decide in court, I know at least one person that's glad he had that pump shotty (that would be the neighbor, who still has all of his crap) and the balls to stand up for what was right.

And to Strada, that is some F'ed up stuff right there.
 

·
NRA Member
Joined
·
554 Posts
The following is from the Ohio Attorney Generals booklet on the Ohio concealed Carry Law. It is given to everyone that takes the Ohio CHL class, PLEASE read this or the one you should have from your state.
__________________________________________________________________________
WARNING:
The law specifically discourages citizens from taking matters into their
own hands and acting as law enforcement agents. This is true even if
the person thinks he is performing a good deed by protecting someone
or helping law enforcement. The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled that a
person risks criminal charges if he interferes in a struggle and protects
the person who was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed that person
did not create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified. If
you do not know all the facts and interfere, you will not be justified to
use force. It does not matter that you mistakenly believed another was in
danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact that you may
be putting yourself and others in danger. If you use your handgun to
interfere in a situation, and an officer arrives on the scene, the officer will
not be able to tell if you are the criminal or if you are the Good Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to carry a concealed
handgun does not deputize you as a law enforcement agent. Officers
are trained to protect members of the community, handle all types of
situations, and enforce the law. Do not allow the license to carry a
concealed handgun give you a false sense of security or empowerment.
Let law enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good
Samaritan, call the police.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,627 Posts
It mostly comes down to being a judgement call. Can you interfere without causing a pitched gun battle? If it looks like the perp only wants to rob someone, then it's prob safer to let him get away with the property because it's just that, property. Not worth a life. If it looks like he's going to shoot, I most likely would intervene.

This is sort of like the talk I got into in college when I was going for my nursing degree. If you know CPR, and you see someone on the ground, do you stop? Assist? It comes down to reading the situation, and individual beliefs.
 

·
Light left on
Joined
·
3,786 Posts
What uhlawpup said. Every such situation is different, whether in military uniform, on-duty LE, or bermudas & Ho-Chi Minh's... when a moment like that comes one's perception from that position at that moment in time is going to be different than someone else's as only they know their capabilities. Unlike the 7 witnesses nearby who are absolutely positive they all saw the same thing; just ask 'em.
;)
 
G

·
The piece from the Ohio Attorney General's booklet is interesting, I guess I would rather be in Nevada. I am not sure the law is actually different but the attitude is. I cite the Winnemucca shooting - Bar Patron in "good shoot" as the case in point.
--------------------------------
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880526010

The initial investigation indicated that there had been two separate shooters during the incident. One of the alleged shooters, Ernesto Fuentes Villagomez, age 30 of Winnemucca, was among the three men who were dead on arrival. The other was a 48 year old Reno man who was initially taken into custody at the scene as a person of interest.

The subsequent investigation lead detectives to believe that Villagomez entered the bar and at some point began firing multiple rounds. At least two of these rounds struck and killed the other two decedents, Jose Torres age, 20 and his brother Margarito Torres, age 19 both of Winnemucca. At some point during this shooting spree Villagomez allegedly stopped and according to witnesses reloaded his high capacity handgun and began shooting again.

It was at this point that the second shooter, the Reno resident, produced a concealed handgun and proceeded to fire upon Villagomez who succumbed to his wounds. The Reno resident was in possession of a valid Concealed Carry Permit issued through the Washoe County Sheriff’s Office.

After further investigation as well as ongoing discussions with Humboldt County District Attorney Russell Smith, the decision was made that the shooting of Villagomez by the Reno man was a justifiable homicide as outlined in Nevada Revised Statute 200.120 and 200.160. Because of this the Reno man was released from police custody.
----------------------------------------------

That would seem to be the law, and the attitude, in Nevada.

What each of us would do in any situation will depend on many things and could vary from moment to moment. I expect that most of us will do the right thing, whatever that is, most of the time.

Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
People brave enough to do that should get friggin medals. Lucky for him he killed the bastard, otherwise the gun he used would have been in evidence for a LOOOOOOOONG time.

(always have two of your favorite carry gun, or at least another one you shoot equally well)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Bottom line is that it's human nature to care about your own ass above and beyond anyone else's. Beyond that I think it's obvious that it depends on the individual and the situation. You risk legal repercussions, you risk making the situation worse, etc.

If someone is getting the **** kicked out of them it's two very different things to go in gun(s) blazing when there was no threat to your personal well being or to call 911 and then verbally try to diffuse the situation and when/if it becomes a threat on your life to defend yourself.

Personally, I would like to think that I would risk the crime by trying to save someone's life, but I can't say because I have never been there before... If, and this is a big if, the situation played out an exact way, the mental anguish of knowing I let someone die because I didn't get involved would be far worse for me than going to jail because I did try.
 

·
Intergalactic
Joined
·
4,127 Posts
I'm not against intervening at all, it's just that the "What ifs" and other unknowns of these posted situations are far too great for me to sit here and commando from the confines of the keyboard.
For me, most of those decisions would have to be made while the action is hot rather than on an internet forum.
I'd like to think that my training and experience would carry me/my family through unscathed, regardless of what my decision to act or leave.
 
1 - 20 of 56 Posts
Top