How important is shot placement? John "Shrek" McPhee talks

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by DonGlock26, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26

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  2. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    It isn't hitting something that's important...it's hitting something important that's important.
     
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  3. James Alexander

    James Alexander

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    The 4 P lesson. Placement, penetration, practice, and a little prayer never hurts. Put the round in a vital area, drive it deep enough to reach the vitals, practice doing so, and pray it never happens and if it does He is with you against your enemies.
     
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  4. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26

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    I'd add persistence. Every cartridge is another chance to shut off the light switch.
     
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  5. dubito

    dubito

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    This video was supposed to pertain to shot placement. Rather, some yahoo ejaculated about riding the gun up the target as the gun recoils. Riding the gun upward lets us pray for a successful outcome, I guess.
     
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  6. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26

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    The Delta Force yahoo? LOL!!

    It was called "the Zipper" by LE firearms instructors.
    Basically, using recoil to your advantage with M-4s or MP5's.
     
  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Remember toward the end of the 80's, a couple of savvy folks gave us a couple things to consider?

    One was that a suspect falling down was a good way to observe if they were sufficiently affected by being shot, combined with the observed loss of their ability to continue whatever volitional violent actions on their part had caused you to shoot them in the first place.

    The other was that in order to hope for reasonably fast incapacitation to occur you needed to put bullets where they would sufficiently damage critical tissues, structures and organs.

    Close to 30 years later, have we seen anything that disagrees with their thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
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  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    If you're going to testify about it as a shooting technique in court, calling it "intentional vertical stringing" sounds less yahoo-like to most jurors. ;)

    (Not kidding BTW, as a major gun company was using the term vertical stringing to describe a shooting technique involving making aimed/centered hits while riding recoil force "up" a threat target many years ago.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  9. dubito

    dubito

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    Gee, did I just refer to a Delta Force guy as a yahoo? Wow, remind me to roll over in awe whenever someone recommends riding the gun upward for random shot placement.

    Riding AK-47s upward was an imperfect Viet Cong technique, I've heard.
     
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  10. hogarth

    hogarth

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    There's nothing random about it. It's still 3 aimed shots.
     
  11. dubito

    dubito

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    Those shots are uncontrolled with respect to recoil and upward climb. Sounds like random drifting to me.

    Moreover, American forces were able to counter successfully the Viet Cong's riding the AKs upward by employing shotguns in the jungle.
     
  12. arkdweller22

    arkdweller22 Cuhootnified Roamer

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    Yeah...
    Bill Jordan, who was 6’7”; stated that he’d typically aimed for the belt buckle of his almost always much shorter antagonist, that way he was sure to get hits as his revolver’s muzzle climbed from the recoil.

    Seems like a pretty common tactic from experienced and knowledgeable pros. :dunno:
     
  13. dubito

    dubito

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    I'll admit that letting your gun drift upward with recoil would successfully accommodate an inability to control the gun's movement in recoil.
     
  14. arkdweller22

    arkdweller22 Cuhootnified Roamer

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    I’m sure that most folks that have been in gunfights practice on the regular. I also believe that their recoil control skills exceed those of most gun carriers.

    I tend to think that in a lethal force situation a person probably fires a handgun faster than they can get back on target. No matter how much one practices double taps, etc., most training goes out the window when the balloon goes up, so to speak.
    Additionally, someone like Bill Jordan likely experienced this phenomenon in a gun fight, had the luxury of retrospective analysts and a fair understanding of such things. Also taking into account that someone like that will seek to improve his real world skill set to improve survivability, I’m imagining he adapted to this phenomenon using the aforementioned technique.

    Fortunately for me, I’ve never been in a gunfight and wouldn’t know. So I can only take the advice of those with greater experience and knowledge of the subject.
     
  15. hogarth

    hogarth

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    I took his class. They are not "uncontrolled".
     
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  16. dubito

    dubito

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    Okay, I'm now hearing that his upward drift is a training technique.
     
  17. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26

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    What have you done defensively or offensively with firearms?

    What is your source for this "Viet Cong Technique"?

    You are making a false claim. He never said to make random shots. He said to target the CNS
    in three areas- the center of the chest, the high chest area & neck, and the head. He's a Delta Force sniper and he states right off the bat that he likes head shots.

    He speaks of not seeing pelvic shots causing immediate incapacitation. He said, IF you are going to target the pelvis, it's best to start there and work your way up to the CNS.

    He correctly states that heart and lung shots don't necessarily cause incapacitation immediately.

    In CQB, he says that he can put three bullets in the above mentioned three areas in 3/4 of a second. If his first shot misses the spine, it will probably hit the heart, major blood vessels or lungs. If his second shot misses the spine, it will probably hit a major blood vessel, if his third shot misses the high spine, it will likely hit or disrupt the brain. He's specifically aiming for these areas. He's also keeping things fast and simple for students.

    His method also is, in effect, a failure to stop/ body armor drill. There is no need to train separately for that situation. If your second or third shot disrupts the CNS the fact that the first shot was stopped by body armor or didn't hit a vital structure doesn't matter. Three shots to the center mass with body armor or a person who does not stop is not accomplishing as rapid a stop as his method. You would have to react to a failure to stop. With his method, the threat is already down regardless. That's simple and effective.
     
  18. MedicineBow

    MedicineBow Formerly TFLWYO

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    To me, shot placement involves picking a path through a three dimensional object, not picking a point of aim on a cardboard target positioned square to me. This becomes more important with training that espouses moving off the X. Just a couple of steps off center changes the relationships. A heart shot taken from an angle can completely miss the spine. With a target facing you at any kind of angle, for a CNS hit you almost are picking the exit point more than the entry point. Although the dynamics are somewhat different, bow hunting has taught me more about choosing a path than any firearm training I have taken.
     
  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    In one form it's taught as a controlled use of limited recoil rise to assist with delivering aimed fire in a vertical pattern. It's usefulness and practically can be limited by circumstances. It's employment is NOT an excuse to shoot over the threat or otherwise miss the intended target.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  20. dubito

    dubito

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    Neck shots usually over-penetrate. One exception to that generality was delivered by a .357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP round.