How do you shoot a rifled caliber pistol?...Draco, PLR, etc.

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by emt1581, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. emt1581

    emt1581 Curious Member

    Messages:
    19,885
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Location:
    Penn's Woods
    I have wanted to get a Draco for a long time now but I could never figure out the use of them. That is, other than the range, what would I use it for? However, I'm thinking it would make for a great car pistol (since we're not allowed to have long guns in vehicles here.

    But I'm curious how you shoot it? I mean, a rifle isn't going to be very accurate if shot from the hip like a 12ga. But without a stock, how do you aim/shoot one effectively and accurately?

    What does the grip and stance look like? Would a laser be a smart accessory for these at ranges <100yds?

    Thanks!

    -Emt1581
     
  2. MaximaDrvr

    MaximaDrvr

    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Location:
    Raleigh, Charlotte, NC
    The nice thing about an AR15 pistol, is that the buffer tube sticks out of the rear of the weapon. They sell padded buffer tubes, and the recoil of .223 is low enough that you can cheek weld one without problems.
    Otherwise, you hold them with a standard two handed grip and use like a normal pistol.
     

  3. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

    Messages:
    25,527
    Likes Received:
    14,359
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Location:
    Texas
    I have Red Dots on mine. If I want to be assured of hitting what I want I hold it out, two handed, and use the Red Dot or laser.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    For distance I use the sling. Even at 100 yards when standing and using the sling and Red Dot, most of a 30 round magazine can be kept close to COM.
    [​IMG]

    Or the gun can be scoped and bench rested like a rifle.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

    Messages:
    25,527
    Likes Received:
    14,359
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Location:
    Texas
    Depending on the gun it can be quite accurate.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As a house or car gun it has a big problem. The noise and blast is ear splitting.
    [​IMG]

    Of course the most fun is just blasting at stuff from the hip.:supergrin:
     
  5. emt1581

    emt1581 Curious Member

    Messages:
    19,885
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Location:
    Penn's Woods
    M2- You mentioned using the sling...I'm assuming you mean wrapping it around your hand/wrist/elbow right? I didn't consider that. In terms of quick follow-ups that might help.

    I figured for when out a decent flash hider would help the muzzle flash. In terms of the noise, I'd much rather be deaf than dead. Still, I wouldn't use it IN the car...but outside. So I'm not sure how harmful a few shots would be if it came to that.

    You mentioned blasting stuff from the hip....can you really do that? Out to how many yards is it accurate/possible that way?

    Also, have you ever tried a laser on them? Other than my AP ML2 I have little experience with red dots. I just know that one would probably cost as much as the gun.

    Thanks for the info and the pics! :)

    -Emt1581
     
  6. emt1581

    emt1581 Curious Member

    Messages:
    19,885
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Location:
    Penn's Woods
    I do plan to build an AR pistol with one of the lowers I have in the future. However, for right now the AK pistol has two huge advantages over the AR pistol.

    First off is cost, as I said, I have a bunch of lowers. But to build one into a pistol would easily cost between $800 and $1000. A Draco would only cost $375 OTD (including the gun, shipping, and dealer fees).

    Second, from my research, an AR pistol does not have the power/punch that an AK pistol has. Barrel lengths being equal, the AK's bullet seems to be less effected by a shorter barrel when compared to an AR's bullet.

    Thanks!:)

    -Emt1581
     
  7. emt1581

    emt1581 Curious Member

    Messages:
    19,885
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Location:
    Penn's Woods
    Any other thoughts?

    Thanks!

    -Emt1581
     
  8. Reswob

    Reswob

    Messages:
    2,186
    Likes Received:
    692
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Location:
    VA
    Single point sling, push the gun away from you, tension against the sling will help steady it.
     
  9. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

    Messages:
    25,527
    Likes Received:
    14,359
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Location:
    Texas
    Some people use a single point sling that's attached to the back of the gun. The sling is over the shoulder and the gun is pushed forward against the sling
    I like the two point sling. It carries like a rifle but by putting it around my neck, when the gun is pushed forward it can be held very steady and I can get a "cheek weld" just like a rifle stock. That's how I was shooting that 100 yard target. I use M1 Carbine slings.
    [​IMG]


    The Phantom flash hider will do away with the flash but not the noise.

    Let me tell you about the noise.
    A neighbor's place is about 200 feet from my rifle range. For years he has heard me shooting all manner of guns.
    When I walked by his place the first time I shot the .223 pistol he asked me, "What in the heck are you shooting? I've never heard anything that loud".

    I do keep the AK, AR and PLR pistols loaded and in the safe. I don't plan on using them for HD but just in case there's a pair of ear muffs on top of the safe.

    Yes, hearing damage is better than being dead.
    Personally, I don't care what I was armed with, I would hate to go up against someone armed with one of these pistols and knew how to use it.

    The gun is as accurate as the shooter.
    Some people are very accurate shooting from the hip. Some are lucky to hit the berm. I'm just OK shooting clay pigeons out to 10-15 yards, if I stay in practice.

    For years I have used mostly the very inexpensive BSA Red Dot on my guns, from 22 pistols to 12 ga shotguns. I have about two dozen of them and just ordered four more. Considering the price they should be junk but they work great.
    http://www.natchezss.com/Optics.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=OS&prodID=OSRD30&prodTitle=BSA 30mm Red Dot Sight 5 MOA
    The sight has been changed from the catalog picture. The two I just received look like this. I've already sighted them in on this SIG 522 and S&W M&P 15-22.:)
    [​IMG]

    These pistols were made for lasers. I use Streamlight TLR-2 laser/lights (about $235) on my PLR .223 pistols. From the hip in low light new shooters easily blast clay pigeons shooting rapid fire.

    Just for the heck of it I put a laser on my Ruger Charger pistol and was shooting it from the hip at 25 yards.
    [​IMG]

    Both will easily go through 1/4 inch steel but the AK round will still be a big hunk of metal coming out the back, where as there will be nothing left of the .223.

    FWIW my favorite gun of this type is the Kel Tec PLR.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  10. Detectorist

    Detectorist

    Messages:
    19,605
    Likes Received:
    9,115
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2008
    Location:
    Missouri
    What kind of recoil can I expect with the Draco?
     
  11. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

    Messages:
    5,165
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2000
    Either you use a sling and push against it as described, you add a stock to it (by far the best answer where it is legal), or you give up a huge amount of either speed, accuracy, or both.
     
  12. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

    Messages:
    25,527
    Likes Received:
    14,359
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Location:
    Texas
    I haven't shot the Draco but if you have fired the AK rifle from the hip, my AK pistol is about like that. Nothing the average shooter would have trouble with.
     
  13. mdfd

    mdfd

    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2006
    Hey M2,

    will the new BSA red dot sights you have pictured there cowitness the stock sights on the PLR16?

    I've been searching for a decent red dot sight that will allow for BUIS cowitness either thru the sight or under it....
     
  14. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

    Messages:
    25,527
    Likes Received:
    14,359
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Location:
    Texas
    FYI the AK pistol isn't much shorter than the folding stock AK rifle.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

    Messages:
    25,527
    Likes Received:
    14,359
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Location:
    Texas
    No it sits higher than the sights. And as I recall you can't see the iron sights through the lens because of the higher built in mount.

    The BSA I like, but they aren't made anymore, is the one that uses scope rings. (in the above picture)
    Even though the Red Dot is still high, the iron sights can be seen and used through the sight lens.
     
  16. emt1581

    emt1581 Curious Member

    Messages:
    19,885
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Location:
    Penn's Woods
    Right. I think we talked about this in an earlier thread, but this pistol would be specifically to get around my state's (PA) no long guns in vehicles (unless going to/from the range) restrictions. And since I want to throw this in my GHB, it wouldn't be easily explainable why I just happen to have a long gun in my vehicle if pulled over and/or searched.

    Now I did the math and I could buy an AK pistol (Draco) for around $375 OTD. OTOH since I already have a bunch of lowers, I could BUILD an AR pistol (10.5" RRA upper) for around $600.

    The AK would be cheaper and have better power, but the AR seems to be more controlable/accurate given the cheekable tube plus can be accessorized out the wazoo!

    Thanks again for the pics/info!

    -Emt1581
     
  17. Reswob

    Reswob

    Messages:
    2,186
    Likes Received:
    692
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Location:
    VA
    THAT one isn't, a krink-type pistol would be a good 2-3" shorter than the Draco, 7" shorter than a 16" rifle.
     
  18. dosei

    dosei

    Messages:
    3,171
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    Shot from the hip "like a 12ga."...are you past purberty?:shocked:
    Unless it has a laser, NOTHING is accurate when shot from the hip. Stop watching TV & Movies thinking that what you see there is how it should be done...sheezzz...

    Here are some videos of people shooting PLR16's

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJE3-MpxALE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckZ0HC_GwcY

    A red dot/holosight/EOTech/Fastfire type sight is very handy. For more precision at longer ranges, a pistol scope (long eye releif) is great.
     
  19. mdfd

    mdfd

    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2006
  20. BEER

    BEER bad example

    Messages:
    6,850
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Location:
    Dayton, Texas
    i don't know what practical purpose they serve but i know when you jokingly pull one out at the beginning of a ccw class you'll immediately get the instructor's undivided attention. lmao

    no it wasn't me, it was somebody in the same class as my best friend a year or 2 ago. the guy actually used a glock for the class but he just wanted to see how many people would lay an egg when he pulled out his ar-15 pistol build. apparently most of the class and both instructors reacted exactly how he expected. lol