[Hunca Munca]

I didn't want to post this in CT but I did want to ask:

As the Supervising SGT, if you got called in to the clusterstorm of the OK trooper vs the paramedic-- how would you handle the scene??

 

[OXCOPS]

If it were me, I'd start off by getting people calmed down, then try to find out what happened before jumping to any conclusions. If I felt that others needed to be involved immediately (IA, Chief, etc.) then those calls would be made.

I would get written statements from witnesses, etc.

As with any other officer responding to a heated call, the supervisor responding here MUST keep his cool if he expects to get those involved to do the same.

 

[Sam Spade]

"Gents, we're moving this show to the ER driveway. You, Mr. Driver, will stand by your rig. You, Mr. Supervisor, will proceed directly and immediately into the hospital with your patient. Radio ahead if you need help for that. "

 

[blueiron]

Based on some of the recent postings by a few Cop Talkers who say they are in the business, I can see where the asshattery starts for some of this stupidity.

 

[4949shooter]

The VERY first thing I would do would be to get a medical assessment of the patient from a qualified, level headed person if possible.

Then I think I would start with Ox's approach if the patient's condition was not in need of an emergent response.

If the patient's need of medical attention was indeed emergent, then I would go with Sam's approach.

The thing is Hunca, while it is relatively easy to determine what NOT to do from afar, it can be a little hard to determine what TO do if you are not right there at the scene. Sometimes it takes on scene presence in order to get a true feel for the situation.

I received a PM from someone who is a lot closer to this situation from a medical perspective. According to him, the patient did suffer some medical consequences as a result of this incident. Whether or not this is a direct result of the paramedic Mr. White leaving the patient alone in the ambulance, or the detainment of the ambulance or both I think remains to be seen.

 

[Hunca Munca]

Do you mean have another ALS crew dispatched to scene to provide patient care while you sort this out?

I think there is potentially a big issue with patient abandonment here.
If the medic on his own left the patient to get into an altercation then he has abandoned the patient with all of the legal ramifications that abandonment holds for an EMS provider.

If, however, the medic can state/argue that he was removed from patient care by force/threat of force by the trooper, then I think I can be argued that patient abandonment and subsequent medical sequelae could be placed on the trooper. THAT could have considerable civil ramifications and potentially criminal liability.

One of the big issues here is that it seems everybody forgot about the patient during this cluster-- and that should be one of the biggest take home lessons from this whole mess.

This would make a good training scenario IMO.

 

[Dragoon44]

I am with 4949, The ambulance gets sent on it's way and the situation gets investigated at the hospital. and God help that trooper if he were one of mine and he stopped the ambulance on a run because some chicken **** yield issue or he thought one of the guys flipped him a bird.

 

[OXCOPS]

A general run of thumb for us was nothing stops the meat wagon.

 

[4949shooter]

Do you mean have another ALS crew dispatched to scene to provide patient care while you sort this out?

If there was absolutely no one there fit and able to care for the patient properly then yes, calling another ALS crew to take over would be an option. But much more than that, I meant the on or off duty doctors, nurses, paramedics, and EMT's that many times seem to show up randomly at these incidents. Someone uninvolved who could give an unbiased, honest medical assessment of the patient. If this is not possible, then it's off to the hospital and we'll deal with the rest later. Again, it's difficult to assess without being on scene. My main issue with the troopers was from an officer safety standpoint though. Once a subject resists arrest there is no turning back. But a determination of the patient's condition should have been made long before it got to the point of arreeting the paramedic.

I think there is potentially a big issue with patient abandonment here.
If the medic on his own left the patient to get into an altercation then he has abandoned the patient with all of the legal ramifications that abandonment holds for an EMS provider.

Absolutely. Abandoning his patient is exactly what he did. He could have stuck his head out of the ambulance and said, "We have to go, the patient is in trouble" and been done with it. Interestingly, the medical professional who PM'd me told me the paramedic Mr. White previously has had a bad reputation for egoism and a hot temper, just like the trooper in this case.

If, however, the medic can state/argue that he was removed from patient care by force/threat of force by the trooper, then I think I can be argued that patient abandonment and subsequent medical sequelae could be placed on the trooper. THAT could have considerable civil ramifications and potentially criminal liability.

True. And I think there is blame to go all around here.

One of the big issues here is that it seems everybody forgot about the patient during this cluster-- and that should be one of the biggest take home lessons from this whole mess.

Absolutely. Egos got in the way of patient care.

This would make a good training scenario IMO.

Unfortunately, these are lessons of what NOT to do.

I agree completely with Dragoon, Sam, and Ox. There were other, more professional ways to deal with this while keeping the patient in mind.

 

[Hunca Munca]

Unfortunately, these are lessons of what NOT to do.

I agree completely with Dragoon, Sam, and Ox. There were other, more professional ways to deal with this while keeping the patient in mind.

I agree and by a training scenario I meant to use this as an example of what
not to do.............

 

[4949shooter]

I agree and by a training scenario I meant to use this as an example of what
not to do.............

I knew where you were coming from.

I was just stating the obvious.