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Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by -JCN-, Apr 1, 2020.
I think your times are very respectable.
Warrior Poet with efficient sub-1 second draws at 5 yards from concealment with a Glock.
With a non-safety Glock from a loose holster without a claw I can do a sub-second draw. But I choose a close pressed tight holster and manual safety knowing it slows me down a little.
Definitely, as I'm feeling the process, I've got a delay between sound and action. I also played a bit with appendix and a looser shirt and it does bring that time down, but that's not how I carry for comfort and concealment, so I'm not going to waste time on that.
Probably going to add some more draws from concealment to my dry fire routine as I need to work on clearing my various sized shirts more efficiently, since I have a number that drape differently and my spring/summer Ts are a little tighter and/or longer.
Also ran some with my G19 for fun, didn't notice any loss of speed (or at least I'm still at that 1.5ish range) between the safety on the X9 and the no safety of the Glock.
It's been an entertaining challenge, interested to see what's next.
No matter what your time is, constant practice will improve it. It takes years to break the ONE second and hard, very hard work to stay there, it might even reduce those very impressive post counts that we see here.
Sub 1 second is pretty standard for AIWB
I had a encounter that provided lots of inspiration and now practice everyday at sub 1 second.
Took only about 3 months to achieve. I didn't think i could do it when i started.
I do live fire a 7 yards same speed.
I find this guy a good example and his crime videos as inspiration.
You guys don’t have to be all hoity toity about it.
Like I said, I can do sub-1 second all day long with a G23 / G19 sized gun from AIWB even from a tight holster.
But I choose to give up a few tenths for a smaller firearm and tighter to the body holster when I normally carry.
I have no doubt that the other people here could do it as well if they changed equipment. IMO, the belt and holster play a huge part in eliminating inefficiency of the draw stroke.
BTW the target is a 1/2 size IPSC.
Challenge #2 posted:
hoity toity ?
Others were questioning posted times.
Glad you posted a video should answer all their doubts
I like that timer.
While that is a nice time in the video, I do not really consider that drawing from concealment.
I should probably clarify with some background. I like all kinds of guns and have tried to get some trigger time on different platforms and systems.
When working on sub-1 second draws for USPSA competition at the prompting of @sciolist , I really tried to pay attention to efficiency of movement like he highlighted.
It became fairly clear fairly quickly where time was lost and practicing with an OWB drop holster CZ helped me draw faster with every other gun in every other holster position as I improved my mechanical index.
But I did notice that a lot of the sub-1 second YouTube guys were loose holstered Glock guys (T.Rex, Warrior Poet, Gabe White) and in playing around with different holsters it became apparent why that was.
The hoity toity part was more @PzGren suggesting that if we spend more time practicing than posting we might achieve it and your comment that it was “standard.”
It’s standard with a certain size Glock from a certain type of concealment from a certain type of holster.
It’s fairly not possible with other gear, so it’s only standard with certain equipment.
Dunno what your criteria are, but it’s an untucked polo shirt and you can’t see the outside of the gun. It’s pretty standard garb for YouTube sub-seconders. People were posting that they used T-shirts which is similar.
What about this doesn’t pass for concealment?
It’s bulkier than I normally like to carry for “printing” reasons, which is why I usually carry a slimmer gun with a claw holster that rides lower.
It’s literally what I would wear to Walmart as per the challenge.
I made a video just for @PzGren front facing and I made sure my shirt was smoothed down all the way just for him!
If you watch in slow mo, the retention of the holster costs a little time but I like a very positive retention for Glocks.
@xls177 The timer is a Double Alpha Shotmaxx which is convenient and nice for movement practice. I use a Commander for string work because it pipes times to my tablet to easily calculate hit factor on the PS app.
nicely done. I'm still not an AIWB person, but I recognize that a lot of respected guys carry that way. Nicely done again though.
I think anything under 1.5s with normal carry guns and equipment is extremely respectable. For most people, carry guns and holsters are compromises by definition otherwise I’d be carrying a 47 oz CZ from an OWB drop holster to the grocery store!
As it is, I generally balance towards smaller guns with very positive holster retention, manual safety and low riding for comfort and concealment. But those carry compromises come at a speed cost. It takes a little more effort to get to the grip when it’s pressed against your body.
I chose AIWB with a short gun because it’s the most comfortable sitting and driving for me.
I didn’t want these challenges to be about chasing the elusive sub-second. I can’t do it from my normal carry holster / gun combination, but I can with a standard Glock setup.
I wanted it to be about people getting better with the combinations they use and maybe making small changes to clothing / cant / height or position that help with efficiency.
Like @sciolist says, it’s about efficiency and the time will follow. Different equipment has different efficiency. So chase efficiency and not an absolute time.
@xls177 I hope you play in the next challenges too! You seem like a motivated shooter and it’s always fun to see what other people’s solutions to similar problems are! I’m always looking to improve!
Well said. I also have a weird habit. I actually push down on the grip before drawing the weapon. I do this to force my hand up, in to the "beaver tail" and to ensure a good, solid grip. I've done that so long and don't know if I can (or should) break that habit. As an RSO that oversees a lot of Steel Challenge matches, I've seen a lot of people come out of the holster with a bad grip. I actually saw one person throw their gun about five yards once. Instant DQ.
Components of shooting fall into a relatively narrow spectrum of time/difficulty. They are not that hard, and there isn't much extra time.
There's no time to go "fast". And speed is not what's being measured, time is. Same as with autoX, there are only 2 numbers - points and time. No one cares what your top speed on the course was, and in many/most cases, the guy with the higher top speed also has a higher time.
Trying to go fast, like with a 50-yard dash, equates to gross effort. In that case, you might be spending 6 seconds on one thing. That never happens in shooting. Almost nothing is ever flat-out. If the pedal gets to the floor, it probably means you're too late for the next thing.
Most of the time, skilled shooters are not making a gross effort. They are making specific efforts to do only the necessary steps at the earliest possible opportunities. And that results in the highest amount of points and the lowest amount of time.
Everyone has a built-in subconscious aversion to stuff blowing up in their face. So even though shooting isn't technically difficult, it can be very hard to focus your attention precisely, especially under stress. Maybe you look away only 5%, but that's where matches (and defensive encounters) are won and lost. Once you have chops, it's mostly a contest of perception and grace.
The main value of dry fire is that it allows you to get very skilled at everything except managing the discharge. And that shows you how things need to be happening to maximize HF in live fire. Results in shooting are always collateral to process.
Just for fun, tried appendix with the X9 a bit more and was down to right around 1.30. This set of 5 is 1.34 average, the 1.45 outlier was because I got caught up in my undershirt (didn't retuck after each holstering like I probably would in real life when I get setup).
At this point I did feel like the thumb safety was slowing me down a tick, so maybe I'll get out the Glock 19 again and see if that helps.
A different, shorter, shirt also helped.
Still, appendix carry does not work for in comfort or concealment, so it's just a thought experiment, I can tell my 2 o'clock position is less efficient pushing out and clearing my garment, but that's fine. Something to work at.
I don’t think this is a weird habit. I am far from an expert but the training I have had stressed driving the hand down to establish a solid grip high on the beaver tail. Establishing the grip in he holster is critical to minimize movement once you begin the draw. I doubt I’ll ever produce the sub second draws posted here, but I feel pretty good about 1.4 to 1.8 with a closed cover garment.
By the way, love the thread. I’m a firm believer in dry practice drills. I think most shooters would benefit from this practice and for many of us, it’s all we can get right now.