close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

GSSF Squadding

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by PM720, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. PM720

    PM720

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,463
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Vegas Baby!
    I didn't want to thread jack the other posts with any more arguments about squadding so I thought I would start this one....AGAIN! :supergrin: For all of those who believe the current GSSF squadding procedure does not work, how many think IDPA or USPSA could run 500-1000 entries on a weekend with their procedures? :headscratch: From what I have read here in SoCal these matches run less than 100 entries on average and run into the afternoon. I haven't shot IDPA or USPSA yet so I am not sure how they run.

    Scott
     
  2. njl

    njl

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2000
    Messages:
    8,394
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Location:
    :noitacoL
    GSSF sqadding has improved quite a bit over the past 10 years. I can't think of any way to improve the current method (when it's done properly).
     

  3. SARDG

    SARDG

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Florida's Left Coast
    IDPA, USPSA, Steel and any other disciplines I can think of right now run squads something like the military squad (a small unit) - they form up, and move as a group throughout the stages. Matches begin at a preset time to do this. I don't think GSSF's structure and sheer quantity of shooters would allow that system. There is more 'structure' in other disciplines.

    Also remember that IDPA (etc.) numbers are in people and GSSF numbers are in entries - though in a big weekend match in IDPA (etc.) a single shooter may shoot through more than one handgun class.
     
  4. PM720

    PM720

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,463
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Vegas Baby!
    How big is a "big" IDPA match?
     
  5. ron59

    ron59 Bustin Caps

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,927
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Smyrna, GA
    You can't compare the two.
    In GSSF plate stages, those get shot very fast. Shoot, write down the time, pull the rope, go again. You push shooters through there very quickly. Even the other two stages, the targets are right in front and very visible, get scored quickly.

    IDPA/USPSA use props, walls (barriers), etc. With sometimes 8-10 targets per stage. The R.O. has to weave around to score them all before they can be pasted. Drop turners reset, etc. There's way more time to score, reset those matches than a GSSF match.

    Also, as Kitty pointed out... those squads all travel as a group. All have to finish before next squad starts that stage. Big difference.
     
  6. SARDG

    SARDG

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Florida's Left Coast
    The 3-day IDPA Nationals in SEP is limited to 290 entrants. Not certain if entrants can double-up on guns/classes. Our club's matches are 35-40 people. If a shooter wants to shoot a second gun, that can happen too - but that's unusual.
     
  7. gravitybad

    gravitybad

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Newnan, GA
    A few things to consider when comparing the efficiency of USPSA and GSSF squadding. The main thing to consider is the comparison is like apples and oranges.

    GSSF courses require no 'walk through' as they are basically standardized and what little deviation you may see is clearly obvious from the shooting area while USPSA courses allow the shooters to take the time to walk the course. This allows the shooter to develop a game plan on how they can shoot the course most efficiently given their division. This walk through is needed because of the complexity of stage design which is more or less a free style, artistic expression, similar in uniqueness to that of a fingerprint.

    Another thing to consider in USPSA, and from what little I've shot in IDPA, is that a local match will generally have 5-6 stages with as many squads. I've shot a few 'well run' regional matches where 250+ competitors shot 10 (many very involved and detailed) stages on Saturday and finished 4 stages by 12-1 on Sunday with final results and awards ceremonies beginning at 2-3. I think that is pretty damn efficient considering the 4-6 weeks we generally wait for GSSF final results. (flame suit on)

    The main problem with USPSA squadding is the potential bottleneck that can occur with unbalanced squad size/skill level or stage design. For example, a simple USPSA classifier stage may run about the same time a GSSF stage takes but is then followed by much more involved field course taking more time to shoot and score. The squad finishing the 'quick' classifier will have some down time waiting for the next squad to finish leaving the classifier stage vacant.

    I will give you this...GSSF stages are generally being shot at or scored throughout the day without much, if any, down time. That's about as efficient as it gets, regardless of whether you walk up and shoot or have to wait...and wait...
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  8. legacy38

    legacy38 Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 1999
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    Comparing GSSF to IDPA or USPSA is not a valid comparison. They are completely different formats for the stages.

    For the record though, I have shot an 8-stage sanctioned IDPA match in less time than it has taken to shoot a few 3-stage GSSF matches I have attended.

    The GSSF system would work if it was properly executed, but it isn't, and it isn't far more often than it is in my experience.
     
  9. Noponer

    Noponer

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,827
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    North Georgia
    I'm sure the GSSF staff will entertain ideas from all shooters, but don't forget that you are talking about seasoned USPSA, etc. shooters on the GSSF staff.

    Chris, Scott, Cindy & Mark had not only shot, but organized USPSA, etc. matches before GSSF was born (& still do some as time permits). Various methods have been tried over the years for running GSSF matches. The main problem now is getting the RO's & shooters to adhere to the plan.
     
  10. SARDG

    SARDG

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Florida's Left Coast
    Yes, isn't it though? :crying:

    ROs and shooters would likely be happy to follow a 'plan' and the rules, but it's pretty much been determined that new shooters and ROs largely do not take it upon themselves to read the rules or RO Guides prior to a match. They could, but they don't - so the plan is lost on them. Most people have a life outside the shooting sports that often requires priority attention, but would sit through a required briefing or workshop at a match.

    I am well aware of the background of the GSSF principals in the shooting sports and applaud their ongoing support and dedication, however, it's time to bump up to more formal and consistent training for GSSF members across the system.

    Even reading the rules gives shooters or new ROs only a cursory background and actual attendance at a match starts to build real experience. The rules themselves seem rather abstract until you've experienced your first match.

    As has been noted before, GSSF ROs may or may not even shoot GSSF, they may or may not RO at all in other disciplines, RO training within those other disciplines may or may not be adequate or may be 'different' from what is required in GSSF. I myself RO/SO and shoot so many different disciplines that I've found myself using different commands, trying to start IDPA from 'surrender', starting Steel with my hands at my sides, mixing 2-gun (USPSA) with IDPA, etc. It may take me a string or so to figure out where I showed up to RO and shoot on any given day. Specific RO commands are all over the place for a couple of strings.

    I’m also going to respond to misunderestimated’s New Shooter Briefing thread within the hour.
     
  11. legacy38

    legacy38 Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 1999
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    The issue isn't with the GSSF staff. There are only so many of them, and they are busy with registration, armorer table, etc.

    The issue with ROs not following the system, but the additional problem with that is the ROs are volunteers; so, how do you effectively deal with that? The actual GSSF staff could perhaps try to get around to the bays to make sure the squadding system is being followed, but as we have established, it is a numbers game.

    As to offering alternatives, and this system has its own set of problems, perhaps folks could be divided into groups of 10 at sign in and sent to the first bay with them all shooting and moving together to be followed by the next group of 10. If you have two bays of each stage, send two groups at a time. The obvious problems with this is that shooters wouldn't have the freedom to shoot the stages in an order of preference and it might mean a delayed start for some, but it would also give folks an upfront idea of when they will shoot a stage, and once a group gets going, they will power on right through the match. Everybody but the on deck shooter would be helping to paste.

    Again, the above has its own problems, but simply saying "the squadding system doesn't work" without offering alternatives isn't helping either, and I won't take it personally if others here think the above is wretchedly stupid as I see some issues with it too.
     
  12. Noponer

    Noponer

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,827
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    North Georgia
    Well said.

    I am going to Dawsonville & just enjoy the match. Patience is not one of my virtues, but I have learned its advantages.

    Anyone have any ideas how we can lower the temperature & humidity? That's my main concern. :phew:
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  13. SARDG

    SARDG

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Florida's Left Coast
    Patience is a virtue,
    Catch it if you can,
    Seldom in a woman,
    Never in a man!

    Humidity?? There's a 50-60% chance of rain last I looked. :crying:
     
  14. BamaTrooper

    BamaTrooper Retired

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,836
    Likes Received:
    296
    People down the list should be helping paste any how.

    How do we squad 10 people when those 10 have 3,6,1,4,1,1,2,2,4,6 entries and another group has 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1?

    I go back and forth over whether the shoot 2 and step off is the right way to do it. Unless you are in the squad, it isn't hindering you to let the guy shoot 4 or 6.
    Perhaps the squadding should be done by # of entries per shooter and each squad should have a maximum of 6 guns. If 3 guys are shooting 2 guns each and one guy is shooting 6, that would be two squads. If four guys shooting 6 guns each (extreme example) came up and signed in at the same time, #1 and #2 would go to the shooting positions, assuming 2 arrays at a bay, and shoot 6 guns. When they are done, #3 and #4 go up.

    I say make squads of 6-8 entries, less if those numbers aren't reached, as the shooters make their X. That way the shooters that signed and X'd an hour ago and are about to be pulled don't get bumped by the guys who signed in earlier and got in under the wire by Xing just before squads are called.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  15. Noponer

    Noponer

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,827
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    North Georgia
    Not bad, Bama.

    You must be smarter than I thought! :tongueout:

    I think the "shoot 2 and step off" system causes more delay overall; it does nothing for shooters down the line... only for the next shooter ("on deck") behind the shooter at the line. I believe that everyone is going to have to accept the fact that many shooters are now shooting multiple entries.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  16. SARDG

    SARDG

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Florida's Left Coast
    Squads are SUPPOSED to be made up of 8-12 ENTRIES. (not shooters) Them's the rules!


    Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
     
  17. BamaTrooper

    BamaTrooper Retired

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,836
    Likes Received:
    296
    I know that and you know that, but if 1 guy is standing there waiting, I will pull him up without making him wait for 7 other entries.

    Also larger squads, i.e. 12 entries, would prevent some of the complaints of people being jumped, IF the rules currently in place were followed simply because more people entries would get squadded and limit chances of "jumping" because of early sign in.

    It is a sin that I can check in at 11 and be ready to shoot, give an RO my stickers and keep getting shuffled to the back because someone checks in after me but has an earlier time. Once you hand the sticker in, you should be squadded in the next "group" of x-y.
     
  18. triggerjerker

    triggerjerker

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    TN
    I agree, if you check your name you should be squaded in the next group of shooters that also are ready and have checked in. Still being bumped a hour later by a shooter who signed in before you isn't right. It has happen to me several times.
     
  19. yobohadi

    yobohadi Peon Trainee

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Southwest Idaho
    I agree that the "shoot 2 and step off for another shooter" rule needs to change, I will be shooting in 5 categories in my next match so that will be 3 times that I will need to carry my gear back and forth and get set up, which depending on how long that takes each person can add a few minutes to the delay at each match. If I am going to be up there shooting for 10 minutes anyway why add a minute or two for each shooter to transition back and forth?

    I don't know what the stats are for 3+ entries, but I assume it is more than it used to be and for each of those transitions adding a minute or two will add up. Of course if the shooter doesn't have mags ready to go and are loading at the line maybe they should step off and allow for another shooter to go while they are loading.
     
  20. stak

    stak

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    CA
    I also agree that properly run the factory rules are probably near peak efficiency.

    I think there are some benefits to the 2 entry rule. Let's say you have someone who has 6 entries and four individuals with 1 entry each.

    By having shooter one step off after entry two then allow shooters two and three to do theirs they can now move on and get their day done. It also allows shooter one to reload magazines if necessary. Shooter one steps back up and does entries three and four. Then shooters five and six get to step up, do their thing and move on. This also gives the perception to everyone else in line that everything is moving along.

    If you have an experienced person with all of their guns and magazines ready to go though you are probably slowing it down by having them come back and forth, because they are probably going to shoot faster than it will take them to get on and off the line.

    This is the only thing I go back and forth on. It seems fair to the person who gets there earlier that they should get the jump, but it sucks to be the guy constantly getting bumped. I hated doing that to people especially since they were usually the new members. I think the key was talking and communicating with the crowd to let them know what is going on at all times.