Grizzly Attack and Weapon Selection

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by 4949shooter, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I think opinion are based on what most can skillfully shoot. No point in carrying a 44 mag if you cant hit with it. A full size 10mm loaded hot is at the upper recoil level for the vast majority, why it is popular. At 10y, its not like you are getting off more than a couple of accurate rounds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
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  2. CDR_Glock

    CDR_Glock

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    From people I have spoken to, the 10 mm is the go to. Lighter trigger, faster follow up, higher capacity.

    I train with an Ruger Alaskan 454 Casull, Buffalo Bore 360 grain cast lead bullets.

    Some people have told me of other choices:

    45-70 and Slugs from a shotgun.

    4-3-1 Rule For Bear: 4x caliber, 300 gr, 1000 FPS

    A gun, though, is only as good as the person operating it.




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  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    The issue with any long gun is proximity to it when an attack comes. That hunter had an adequate rifle but no time. So a heavy hitting handgun on you in a accesable holster is minimal but you will have it.
    I would choose a 45-70 guide gun, but if fishing or just backpacking, a 4" 44mag feels about right. When I back packed meat in Montana grizz country I carried a 4" 44mag loaded with 310gr lfp at a sedate 1050fps. It doubt it stops in a 400# yogi.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  4. skyfall

    skyfall

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    Large dangerous animals is why I like a Ruger Alaskan in 44 mag.It is a heavy revolver and for this reason many do not like it.But I am able to fire the heavy loads accurately and quickly with it.A Galco Chest Harness is a comfortable holster set up for me.
     
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  5. budman4900A

    budman4900A

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    I’m comfortable with my 480 ruger w/ 4 5/8 bbl
    I use 400 gr bullet at 1050 FPS .
    This load shoots through 18 inches of wood
    Thank goodness I’ve never had to test that theory
     
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  6. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    The guy had a long gun slung on his shoulder and he couldn't get it into action on time. That's why a handgun is better.
     
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  7. pgg00

    pgg00

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    Yep. Better to get one or two on target instead of having rounds miss
     
  8. PatriotX1

    PatriotX1

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    I do a lot of backwoods dispersed camping and carry a glock20 w/ hard cast underwood ammo in a chest holster. But I also recently picked up a 12ga bullpup shotgun and keep magazines loaded with 00 buckshot and slugs. Got the wife comfortable shooting it in case she needs to use it. So between bear spray, g20 & 12ga we should be ok. [​IMG]
     
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  9. Call Me Trinity

    Call Me Trinity

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    Steven Rinella tells a fascinating story of a Brown Bear attack on Afognek Island, on his Meat Eater Podcast. Episode 86. The simulated Bear attack in the Revenant is a great example one, in my opinion. I choose 12ga or a guide gun if at all possible. And probably 10mm with 15 rounds of 230 gr. Flat nose hardcast. Maybe mix in some controlled expansion hollow points, maybe. Hopefully get rounds off inside of a second. Freakin fast movers, them bears.
    Btw, there a well known account of a Montana man attacked twice by a Grizzly Sow. The Sow ran through the bear spray on the first charge. I believe he said that the spray may have had some effect as the Sow moved off of him. Came back again, later down the trail and sent another message. Real cool guy. Knife maker in Montana.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  10. Scott60

    Scott60

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    I used to work with a guy who was a registered guide in Alaska. When we first met he knew all about big game rifles, handloaded for them, and had is own custom builds. He definitely knew rifles, but had minimal knowledge about handguns because like many he presumed them to be of no value against an Alaskan Brown bear. When pressed his only choice was of course, a .44 magnum because that's kind of the "safe" answer, though in recent years I read about many thinking the .454 is cool stuff. Such calibers will do the job, but they aren't "best"...not any more.

    Here's the bottom line. ONE hit from a .44 magnum, into a bear's face, WILL divert an attack. Bears aren't any stupider than humans when it comes to understanding injury and its consequences. Like everyone else I've read and heard all the hyped yarns about the mythical bear that wouldn't go down with hundreds of hits in him from a 105mm howitzer, but as with most things on gun forums, heavily embellished. Anyone who empties a .44 magnum into a bear and the bear keeps coming - didn't hit him in the face/head...too bad.

    A shotgun loaded with slugs can generate around 2,000 lb-ft of energy. So can a S&W .500 magnum with FOUR inch barrel, and it weighs just 56 ounces empty with a superbly efficient muzzle brake. My 4" 500 with "one ounce slugs" can achieve power equal to a "slug gun" in a much smaller, more accessible package. The .454 had it's brief moment...for the size and weight, no reason not to choose the Smith. The .480...never was a contender, nor meant to be really, so no reason to choose that either. The .460 S&W is choice number TWO and it easily outpaces the .454 and can be had in a very compact, 5" barrel model. Of course both the .460 and .500 can also be had in the even shorter, non-comp'd barrels and no doubt they're blasters, but since the comps work, and are cheaper, why not go with the better total package. The .460 gets a lot of nods because it can shoot so many lesser cartridges - including the .454 (another reason to never choose a dedicated .454 over the Smith .460). But when it comes to the most power possible from a short barrel, properly carry-able HANDGUN, the Smith .500 is THE choice for anyone who chooses to carry a revolver. I have four billet aluminum speed-loaders for mine which really speeds up charging the cylinder with the huge sausage-like rounds. A single "slug" from a .500 magnum at "kill or be killed distance" will shatter an Alaskan Brown bear's skull. Even a more peripheral hit will IMPRESS upon the bear the reasonableness of rethinking the attack even if only for an instant before recovering and making another charge - by which point the human should have already delivered a few more mind-changing hits.

    But there is a "better, all-around" choice and it ain't the 10mm. I once thought the 10mm was the right choice...and it can be acceptable with the right loads, but the better choice in an auto loader is the .460 Rowland. My Glock 460R with 6.61" barrel will pump out 11 rounds of 255 gr hard cast (Underwood) just as fast as any "9mm" only each round is delivering right at 1,100 lb-ft x 11! That's a LOT of suds for any creature including bears. The .460 Rowland easily surpasses the 10mm with the only downside being lack of "turn-key" packages and lack of awareness on the part of most in the gun world as to just what the .460 Rowland is. My "G460" weighs just 34 ounces empty yet delivers more energy per shot than does my Desert Eagle .44, which tips the scales over twice as heavy with MORE apparently off-bore-axis movement during shooting due to the huge slide on the DE. (any DE is just to huge and unwieldy for practical use)
    My second choice - which I kind of like more is my Springfield Armory Milspec Stainless fitted with Wilson BT grip safety and Clark .460 Rowland 5.4" barrel conversion. Though heavier than the Glock, and holding only 8 rounds with stock mag to the Glock's 11, the ergonomics and trigger on the 1911 pattern pistol are superior, and with the compensated barrel, felt recoil is so little that I have to pause to pay attention to the next shot to see if it kicks at all! The SA Milspec is flat, compact, and supremely reliable and can be bumped to 11 rounds with a Chip McCormick 10 shot powermag which have proved to be 100% reliable in the .460 Rowland application. The .460 Rowland "real world" numbers are equal to any factory .44 magnum "non-overloads", and while it won't perform as well with super-heavy bullets as will the .44 magnum, that's not needed for bear defense. A "mere" 230 truncated cone, full metal jacket going 1,400 fps will hold together as well as any hard cast, deform just like hard cast, and penetrate as well.

    Another thing about the .460 Rowland is that, just like its parent cartridge the .45ACP, it's easy to hand load! It's easy to make serious power, and with muzzle brake, the gun is tamer than any .44 magnum revolver! While people are using lots of different powders, for the person who just wants to find a good load and go....800X is THE powder for the .460 Rowland. Anyone interested can find all the info they want right here on this forum.

    My friend retired to Alaska, and when he left California he already had his own .460 Rowland conversion with an ample supply of ammo. Eleven hits delivering 1,100 lb-ft of energy = 12,000+ lb-ft of energy over 11 impact points. A .44 magnum mid-to-long barrel revolver delivers a reasonable 7,200 lb-ft of energy over 6 impact points. Either will kill a bear if the shooter has the ability to do her part, but clearly the autoloader has almost double the capacity. It can also be reloaded MUCH faster.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Well you'll never get a full magazine off in an attack & hit anything, much less a reload to think about. Its stand & deliver as cooly as possible. You dont get to start shooting until yogi is very close, maybe 15y, more like 10y, maybe. So take your rig, set up 3-8" steel plates staggered left/right 4-5ft, up & down 18", 4y apart. Now do the drill. Start back to front, one hit each. Do it from a holster, do it from low ready, do it from pointed in. You will have less than 2sec for all your hits, yogi will cover 35ft in a hurry. Maybe substitute 8" paper plate at 4y for safety sake with big solids.
    First shot hit times are the same or should be for all platforms & calibers. Its the follow up shots that get sketchy. You cant assume your first hit will turn the bear. Pain is not about intelligence but nervous system. People are more likely to quite a fight vs a large predator used to recieving pain.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  12. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I've hunted cape buffalo in tall grass, visibilty 10-15y max, if they come you cant out run one, in fact you cant out run anything that attacks you but a person. So stand & get an aimed hit to structure or cns. With a heavy bolt gun, you get one good shot. With a heavy double you have the luxury of of two very fast shots. Heart or lung shot wont do it, the animal will still come. A shot to the head that doesnt penetrate may turn the attack but no gaurantee. Have enough gun, be skilled in its use, be lucky.
     
  13. cadillacguns

    cadillacguns Millennium Member

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    M-14 and fragmentation grenades, oh and a pic- a -nic basket to slow Yogi down.
     
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  14. agtman

    agtman 10mm Philosopher

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    Well, gunslingers, ... polar bears are a lot tougher and meaner than measily Grizzs and Brown bears, doncha know? :whistling:

    IMG_0364.JPG

    So take a clue from the soldiers of Denmark's Sledge Patrol Sirius. They operate and patrol out of camps in the arctic regions of Greenland, and each carries a 10mm Gen4 Glock 20, loaded hot.

    They're also issued American .30-06 P1917s, but for obvious reasons those rifle aren't always in their hands when an aggressive polar bear appears and decides to attack.

    photo.JPG

    Some brave young men.

    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
  15. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

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    44mag with 250/300 grain WFN hard cast loaded heavy, as the "Bear minimum.." (pun intended). Calibers 'go up' from there. I do not use/carry, (in woods) a semi auto service caliber. If that is ALL I had, period, in 10mm, then I would use a 200 grain hard cast, but 'would not feel' as confident, as I would with the heavy loaded big bore revolver... Why throw BB's at a vault door!

    A super thick haired, heavy boned, heavy muscled, determined to maul you charging carnivore, that weighs 2-5 times more than you, and determined to render you dead, needs as big a dose of power I can put on him, and especially when he is all pumped up with adrenaline! You think its ruff to put down a 120 pound psycho, who is hyped up up drugs? He is notta, compared to a charging bear determined to crush you! Usually, 'they are not a problem,' as most would make you think. However, it CAN/does happen. If, and when it does, why not be as 'properly' prepared, as you think you should be for EDC human/social work, and even 'more so.'
    !?!

    The bear attack is greatly blown out of proportion, and most folks, not acquainted with the outback, think 'everything' in the woods is out to attack them and eat them. Not so. But it "can/does" happen. Not the way 'some' portray it though. Like those same folks, think they need a EDC with a spare 100 rounds and two knives, brass knuckles and a baton, and metal capped pointy toed cowboy boots (crap) and night vision, because "their all out to get them" mentality! The bears and wolves and mountain lions, are not "all out to get us.." I've been with in mere feet, of some of these guys, and no issues. Yet, I am not a complete moron, (despite what my wife says) and I do know, as I said, "it can happen," and does from time to time. So, if you are hangin out in places where you can face bears, big cats, wolves, etc, carry something that works, and don't "smell like fear..."!

    Mostly use common woods sense!

    If ALL you have, and ALL you can afford, is a smaller cal handgun, then use common sense, and stay out of thick brush, and don't walk around with deer blood, or your bologna sandwich smell on ya!

    I've lived in the outback most of my life. Cowboyed, wrangler, guided, and have a healthy respect for 'the wild.' We have HUGE cats, (lions) out on the ranch here, and I have been within 10 feet of them down in the canyons. Scared the bejeebers outta me I assure you.:alex: But ranch carry is, and always has been, 44mag/45LC loaded with heavy hard cast. Same as bigger woods carry for serious business. I carry 'in town,' a 45acp with 230 gr bullets. I do not depend on much less than this. (uh oh, here we go CM) ha. No magic in it, but I do feel better with the bigger heavier bullet, and trust it's penetration, and ability to break bones, and ''still penetrate," over lighter faster, smaller cal bullets.

    Why then, think I MAY face an angry bruin lion, etc, and be only armed with a 9mm, 10mm, 40 cal!? Makes no sense at all. I really don't care what the boys in Alaska carry, or what the FBI carries, or a hundred other folks. I carry what I KNOW works, and I keep in mind, it is MY butt I need to cover if something goes down.

    Well, CanyonMan, who put the burr in your saddle blanket this morning Hombre? HA. I don't know! But everyone best stay 'more' than "6 feet" away from me today! HAHA. I haven't even been out the door yet ! ;)


    Stay safe Amigos








    CanyonMan
    :horse:
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
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  16. thewitt

    thewitt

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    I have a terrifying grizzly story from a hunting trip in college, but before the bear dropped he took 7 shots from a 30-30 to the chest and neck, 6 shots from a .357 mag on the same area and 4 from the side from a .308.

    He dropped 50 feet from me after starting his charge from 80 yards away across a small clearing.

    I saw fur and flesh fly from every hit as he came toward me and he didn't slow even a little until the .308 tore into him from the side.

    Had he been 50 feet closer when he started, I would no doubt be dead.

    There isn't a big enough caliber for me to go intentionally after a brown bear with any handgun... Shotgun with slugs sounds just about right.
     
  17. surevaliance

    surevaliance

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  18. GlockerBill

    GlockerBill

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  19. kwo

    kwo

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    I would trust my 3006 auto with a 20 rd mag. Pistol 357 or larger .
     
  20. surevaliance

    surevaliance

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