glocks and lser sights

1567 Views 23 Replies 11 Participants Last post by kraigster414, Aug 30, 2009

ALANBROWNPAC

Discussion Starter · Jun 13, 2009

I have just started learning about lasers for my Glock 30 SF.
I went with a laserguard by CTC that I hand fit to my SF frame.
It works great but has introduced me to a whole new area of concern. That would be accuracy potential.
The laser sits almost two inches below the bore's axis and with the trajectory of the 45 makes selection of a point of aim yardage most difficult, if not critical to successful use of the firearm for self defense.
I do a lot of research and there are some experts who feel that just because most self defense situation are very close, one still needs to be able to know how to shoot their lasers at distance, too.
One can see that if one were caught in a school shooting or a place of business that the "very close in" situation turns into shooting maybe 30 or even 40 feet or more.
This is where my dilemma lays.
With the laser that I have, leaving my poa at 50 yards ( yes, I said 50 yards)gives me approximately two inches of rise at 25 yards.
That is acceptable to me, especially as the poa is rock solid and poi is predictable.
But wishing that the laser was closer to the bore axis makes me wish for the lasermax internal laser system. Unfortunately, only the 1911 has fine tuning of the system. I find 3" accuracy at such a close range unsuitable if I am forced to shoot longer distances.
I got really excited to see the rear grip series lasermax just came out with, but they don't make it for the 30 SF.
In my short experience with lasers, I would rather have a laser that is in line with the bore axis vertically and slightly off to one side, as that would be a reproducible error of holding the laser one inch to the right of the point of aim, yet knowing how the alignment with the bore will be a better solution.
In fact, knowing that a bullet travels in an arc, it seems that a more accurate solution, or a solution that would give better accuracy over a longer range of point of impacts would be a laser over the bore. Wouldn't if be a neat feat to put one in the front sight?!?!
Anyway, just my curious ramblings. Thanks for reading. Please feel free to respond.
Alan Brown:dunno:

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1 - 20 of 24 Posts

RayB

· #2 · Jun 14, 2009

:agree:

I've got three of the LaserMax models--guide rod, UNI-GREEN & Sabre--and while I like them all, the guide rod remains my favorite.

If you think about it, there's only two ways to collimate a laser designator...

1) Sweet Spot: The laser is set to converge with the bullet at a distance predetermined by the shooter--the sweet spot. The laser will be offset (POA) more or less, inside or outside the sweet spot (POI). This is the only way to set up the laser/light combos, where the laser emitter is far from the bore axis.

2) Offset: If the laser sits close to the gun's bore axis, it can be set up to run parallel to the bullet's path, out to practical pistol ranges. The offset--say it's a half inch--is a known value, and is ignored or compensated for by the shooter. This is how the LaserMax guide rod lasers are set up, since the laser emitter is so close to the bore axis.

While I'm an offset fan, both approaches work, and are plenty accurate for self-defense work. Neither is designed for precision sniping.

--Ray

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RayB

· #3 · Jun 14, 2009

By the bye, there is a new laser out there that is incorporated into a sight system--it projects from the right of the rear sight.

--Ray

ALANBROWNPAC

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 14, 2009

I realize that precision sniping is not what is intended. However, there is little reason to not expect the bullet impact (POI) to coincide with the laser dot (POA) if one has an adjustable laser. This obviously would be at whatever range the shooter selects.
The lasermax guide rod laser states it has 3 inches of variability at such a close range that I wonder what it comes to at distance. What if I had to shoot at someone at 50 yards, would I be able to count on hitting them?
For the fun of it, I set up my laserguard for POA to coincide with POI at 50 yards. On a sandbag I was shooting less than four inch groups.
Have you shot the guide rod laser from a rest for grouping? How did it do?
I was reading real life experiences on a tactical gun website and this guy has to shoot a perp in the hip because the perp is trying to kidnap the perp's exwife at gunpoint in a place of business.
Again, 3 inches could mean hitting the victim or not.
So, as much as I think the guide rod is the neatest solution, I don't trust being unable to adjust the POI to the POA nor the degree of reliability between the two.
Considering a CCW permit, I might be required to fire at longer distances than in my house bedroom or living room.

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ctcdesigner

· #5 · Jun 15, 2009

Alan,

Would you care to post pictures of your modifications to fit up to the 30 SF?

Thanks

8541/9999

· #6 · Jun 15, 2009

Alan
Lasermax guide rods for the Glock 30 subcompact will be with 3 inches at 20 yards that is the maximum distance the bullets will be from the POI. at that distance. Most people find the Lasermax will shoot much closer than that. Lasermax guide rods lock in place with the slide of the pistol and the locking block so the point the laser is at will always be the same no matter how many times its bounced around. We can do custom alignments for what ever range you need. Now on a side note

Bullets do not fly in arcs they fly in straight lines from the line of the bore then gravity and drag bring them down.

If the shot is required 25 Meters or greater Find a bigger weapon or change your tactics so that they will accomidate a shorter range weapon.

The Glock 30 is not designed to hold a 3 inch group at 50M

ALANBROWNPAC

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jun 16, 2009

i will post some pics of the mod as soon as my wife locates my digital camera she has misplaced!!

It was actually a no brainer. I compared a 30SF next to a 36 and saw that the two trigger guards were identical in width and shape.
The place that I had to modify was the height of the laser where it meets the dust cover of the frame. It was too high and pushed the frame up binding it.
A few hours with some crocus cloth and a coarse emery board and it fits just right. I finally got it out to shoot it and it is rock solid. The POA does not change from the POI while shooting.
I really did shoot less than 4 inch groups from a rest at 50 yards! It was a really kick butt fun thing to do.
Not very realistic? Probably, but FUN!!!
That being said, I obviously rankled lasermax with my comments.
One can see that the comments about rarely but maybe having to shoot at distances further than across our living rooms were made by real lawmen and authorities in the field of self defense. And, that these comments in my post are largely ignored.
Also, one can go to federal's website and look at the charts on bullet drop.
Yes a bullet WOULD go in a straight line if there was no gravity or wind acting on it. But since there is, the line is NOT straight but indeed an arc that begins falling as soon as it leaves the barrel.
All one has to do is plot our the drop of a 45 and see that it falls faster the further it goes.
It does not fall in a straight line.
Again, one real world shooting incident leaves me wondering if 3 inch variability at 20 yards is accurate enough to shoot past a vic at a perp counting on an accurate shot.

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DoubleWide

· #8 · Jun 16, 2009

Laserlyte RL-1 is a rear sight laser.

50 yards? Most likely reason to have to shoot someone is robbery. They're not going to rob you from 50 yards away. Do you feel confident that you can identify the situation, suspect, and what's behind them to shoot a person at that distance (school, restaurant, mall, parking lot)? Do you think that most times a 50 yard shootout would be necessary instead of getting out of there? Also at that distance, I'd prefer not to attract attention to where I'm shooting from.

Crimson Trace sights at 50' at the factory.

ALANBROWNPAC

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jun 16, 2009

Once again someone is prompted to comment without reading the entire message thoroughly. I obviously comment that 50 yards is extreme and that the thought only occurred because shoot outs have occurred at that distance as described on a tactical arms website!, albeit RARELY! Still knowing where one's gun shoot at distance MAY...MAY be a life saver IF YOU CAN'T escape or evade.

What part of "Not very realistic? Probably, but FUN!!!" did you miss in the previous posts?!?

ALANBROWNPAC

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 17, 2009

BTW
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/justifiable-long-shots/
For those who think it all happens inside 21 feet, here is the article I quoted and it was written by Massad Ayoob!!!!
Pistol shots from 25 to 100+ yards indefensible in court? Ten cases prove otherwise...what you need to know!

RayB

· #11 · Jun 17, 2009

Still knowing where one's gun shoot at distance MAY...MAY be a life saver IF YOU CAN'T escape or evade.

Again, 3 inches could mean hitting the victim or not.

This assumes that you have collimated your laser for great distances on a given weapon, and remember very well where the laser hits and the bullet lands! You might want to standardize your ammo... :eyebrow:

If outdoors, wind data and air density would matter too! Keep in mind, the laser dot gets bigger too, with distance; these are low power rigs, made to run on watch batteries. :whistling:

Have you shot the guide rod laser from a rest for grouping? How did it do?

I can center-core a B27-Q Half-Size target with a magazine's worth of ammo from either our G19 or G21, which both have LaserMax guide rod lasers. Both of these guns were set up for bedside use, in the home. Both guns are equipped with weapon lights and night sights.

Here in Wiskonsin, I'm in deep doo-doo just defending myself, let alone pursuing the perp outside my home. Wiskonsin cares more about criminals than tax paying home owners--it's a fact.

--Ray

Gun Shark

· #12 · Jun 17, 2009

RayB said:
By the bye, there is a new laser out there that is incorporated into a sight system--it projects from the right of the rear sight.

--Ray

I saw it in a magazine. very cool looking isn't it.

DanGarand

· #13 · Jun 17, 2009

I use my lasergrips for precision sniping all the time at the range where I know how far I am and my laser is dialed in better than my sights.

RayB

· #14 · Jun 17, 2009

DanGarand said:
I use my lasergrips for precision sniping all the time at the range where I know how far I am and my laser is dialed in better than my sights.

You're shooting targets in the sweet spot.

In a fast breaking siutuation, inside or outside your sweet spot, you'd have to:

1) Ignore the difference.
2) Judge your offset and adjust your aim.
3) Use your sights.
4) Point shoot.

--Ray

RayB

· #15 · Jun 17, 2009

Gun Shark said:
I saw it in a magazine. very cool looking isn't it.

You're right!

Initially, I though it was kind of cool...

The gun would have a Mouseketeerish look along the bore axis, and the sight graphics, as shown, are downright coinfusing.

The link is somewhere on this forum.

--Ray

Gun Shark

· #16 · Jun 17, 2009

RayB said:
You're right!

Initially, I though it was kind of cool...

The gun would have a Mouseketeerish look along the bore axis, and the sight graphics, as shown, are downright coinfusing.

The link is somewhere on this forum.

--Ray

http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Gun_Sights/Rear_Sight/New_RL-1.html

just found the link online.

it looks cheap compared to Crimson Trace.

ghostrider88

· #17 · Jul 1, 2009

gun shark said:
http://www.laserlyte.com/laser_gun_sights/rear_sight/new_rl-1.html

just found the link online.

It looks cheap compared to crimson trace.

intersting , but the on switch is the lite color dot on the left mouse ear , i dont wont my fingers up their that glock might bite hard

ALANBROWNPAC

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jul 11, 2009

5

Sorry these took so long. I actually had to order another charger for my camera.
I have included pictures of the pre and post modification phases with commentary.
I WILL SAY THAT; YES, I DID THIS TO MY 30 SF!
ANYBODY ELSE WHO TRIES THIS MOD, DOES SO SOLELY AT THEIR OWN RISK!! I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE TO DO THIS. I SIMPLY PRESENT IT AS SOMETHING INTERESTING.
Now, if I just had a 36 slide to trim down the fat 30 slide and a Phoebus holster that fit the gun, I would be in hog heaven for a CCW weapon!!:wow:

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ChrisJn

· #19 · Jul 11, 2009 (Edited)

Gun Shark suggested the Laserlyte rear sight RL-1 looked cheap compared to Crimson Trace.
I have just installed one on my G27.
It is AWESOME.
It's quite amazing how they can pack so much into such a small space.
The only downside - it was a bear to install, but can be done without resort to a gunsmith. Comes with a brass drift punch to tap it in and allen keys to lock the assembly in place and adjust the laser for elevation and windage. Oh, and four spare LR626 batteries.

RayB

· #20 · Jul 14, 2009

ChrisJn said:
Gun Shark suggested the Laserlyte rear sight RL-1 looked cheap compared to Crimson Trace.
I have just installed one on my G27.
It is AWESOME.
It's quite amazing how they can pack so much into such a small space.
The only downside - it was a bear to install, but can be done without resort to a gunsmith. Comes with a brass drift punch to tap it in and allen keys to lock the assembly in place and adjust the laser for elevation and windage. Oh, and four spare LR626 batteries.

Please, after shooting a few hundred rounds with it, give us a complete review--with pics! :supergrin:

Good luck with it! :wavey:

--Ray

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